The time supposedly wasted following the Grateful Dead has turned out to be one of this Deadhead cannabis entrepreneur's greatest assets. Robert Hunt from Linnaea Holdings is an attorney, entrepreneur, venture capitalist, father and Deadhead. He joins Jim Marty and Larry Mishkin to discuss his career in cannabis and his Grateful Dead journey. He recounts, with surprising accuracy dates, set lists and guest performances from the nearly 200 Grateful Dead shows he attended. Produced by PodCONX https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin https://podconx.com/guests/jim-marty https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt
The time supposedly wasted following the Grateful Dead has turned out to be one of this Deadhead cannabis entrepreneur's greatest assets.
Robert Hunt from Linnaea Holdings is an attorney, entrepreneur, venture capitalist, father and Deadhead. He joins Jim Marty and Larry Mishkin to discuss his career in cannabis and his Grateful Dead journey. He recounts, with surprising accuracy dates, set lists and guest performances from the nearly 200 Grateful Dead shows he attended.
https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin
https://podconx.com/guests/jim-marty
https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt
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Jim Marty: [00:00:35] Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Deadhead Cannabis Show.
Jim Marty: [00:00:38] This is Jim Marty reporting from cold and snowy, but blue sky today was snow on the ground here in Longmont, Colorado. How are things in Chicago land?
Larry Mishkin: [00:00:49] Larry Jim nice to say hello to you and have another episode here. Chicago is Chicago. So a day and a half ago, it was 70 degrees and today it's 35 and snowing. Saturday was so nice that all of the trees started to bloom while the cherry blossom trees and all that stuff. Now, today, everything is getting frosted over and falling off the trees. So, you know, other than that. So I can't complain. Things are good. Keeping busy as we get closer and closer to Ellen wise application deadline just around the corner here. And it this looks like this is a firm deadline this time, which would be good to get those applications in and see where everything goes. But otherwise, no complaints. Knock on wood. Everyone in my family is healthy right now, and I hope yours is doing the same.
Jim Marty: [00:01:31] Yes, things are good here in Colorado. We don't have that many infections and death on the Corona virus, but we're in the middle of our lockdown here. You know, the silver lining, if you could call it, is that Cannabis has been deemed an essential industry. So. All right, don't use in marriage and medical marijuana are still open here in Colorado. And most of our clients are reporting very strong sales as people incubate at home. And how is Illinois's it dealt with?
Larry Mishkin: [00:02:02] Well, you know, as long as we can keep product on the shelf, the numbers are pretty amazing as of last week, because it was in the last two weeks they came up with new numbers in Illinois. Since January 1 is said over a hundred million dollars in sales. Understanding that we have a constant product shortage. So, you know, those are numbers that are being generated with a small number of dispensaries. That's all the new ones having come online yet and with very limited amount of supply. So we're all looking at that as a positive that this is a real market that's just waiting to explode once we can kind of get everything in place and once people can come back outside and do the things that they like to do, including traveling to their local dispensary as we get closer to the application deadline. You know, everyone's getting nervous. I'm getting calls from people all over the place looking forward to getting everything rounded up now. But I think I've a good group of players. We're going to put in some good applications and very exciting to see what happens there. Otherwise, we're doing well with that. Jim, we are very lucky today and we've really made an effort to bring more and more guests on to our show. And we have been lucky because we've had some really, really interesting guests from the fields of Cannabis.
Larry Mishkin: [00:03:14] We had Jay Blacksburg, the photographer for the Grateful Dead and a number of other people. But today, we really kind of hit a home run because our guest today is a guy named Rob Hunt. And I met Rob Waste years ago at one of some conference in Las Vegas where I was doing a presentation and he was sitting in the audience. And after I was done and after we were, you know, he came up to me. We talked for a few minutes. It became very clear to me very quickly, not only did he do what he was talking about, but he knew that I didn't necessarily know what I was talking about on everything. And rather than direct me over the coals in front of a conference room with people, he was kind enough to chat with me about it on the site. But Rob, really, as you'll find out, has a tremendous amount of experience in the Cannabis field, primarily in raising capital for people and for groups for investment purposes. But since we are the Deadhead Cannabis show, Rob will also have some interesting stories to tell us with respect to business deals that he has worked on both with the dead and with the Garcia estate. So, Rob, welcome to our show.
Rob Hunt: [00:04:16] Thanks, Larry. Appreciate it. Good to be here. It's nice to have you.
Jim Marty: [00:04:19] Yes. And Rob reminded me that he and I worked together a number of years ago when Cannabis was just getting started here in Colorado back in 2009, 2010. So nice to get reacquainted with you, Rob.
Larry Mishkin: [00:04:33] Definitely, Jim. Rob, do us a favor. Do you have quite a background in quite an impressive resume in the industry? Give us 30 seconds of self-promotion. How did you get into the industry? You know what? I've kind of been the highlights and we're yet today.
Rob Hunt: [00:04:48] Well, I started in the industry full time in 2007 after I graduated law school in law school. So one semester kind of the project on the disparity between state and federal law as it pertains to medicinal cannabis back. And there's only eleven states in America with with laws on the books. I hit Colorado in 2007 and decided that rather than, you know, getting directly into the industry, why would you say no to support the industry? So in 2008, I opened up a hydroponic starting supply store called Rocky Mountain Products. I grew that from one store to four stores in Colorado and then start opening stores in the Northeast, some of the named Evergreen Garden Center. It was all said and done servicing north of 100 commercial accounts, sold that business in 2013 and sold it to a company. Additional stores on the West Coast, so manage the retail side of that business for a year after that. And then started what is now one of the private largest private equity firms in canvas, called to Atara Capital, which has started in 2014, then took that into a business that was more of a market intelligence firm than anything else called Shingle Hill, where we worked with private equity funds, hedge funds, family offices and high net worth individuals really trying to help them price assets in the Cannabis industry. And you know what an appropriate value for our businesses, both on the buy side and sell side. And then most recently, I've started a new pool of capital, specifically looking at doing a roll up in the in the California market. And that's called landholding.
Jim Marty: [00:06:09] Certainly I have questions for you and comments and in our time slot allowed. So we'll just jump in and hear Bridge West. We do service several hundred Cannabis companies nationwide and they are finding that today's environment, even without the Corona virus, is a very difficult environment to be raising capital. I think the significant falloff in the value of the Canadian stocks has really spooked a lot of investors and a lot of investors are staying on the sidelines. Rob, jump in there with your comments.
Rob Hunt: [00:06:42] Yeah, I think that's right, Jim. You know, 2018 was a time, a watershed event where the luster came off the Cannabis industry largely because of unrealized expectations in the Canadian market. So, you know, we've all seen the Canadian values get decimated by, you know, 90 plus percent for a lot of those businesses. But, you know, anyone those watching the industry closely, I think could have predicted that the Canadian companies were terribly overvalued. And the reason that they were is because, you know, a lot of investors that weren't able to invest in the United States for fear of illegality decide they did want to invest in Cannabis and they felt safe for doing so under the federal guidance of Justin Trudeau's government, where canvas is legalized at a federal level. While I understand the rationale behind it, it certainly didn't translate to a large addressable market. And you know, Canada as a country is smaller than California's. So as people start to realize that, you know, what was being put forward in these prospectuses just wasn't achievable. Ultimately, reality sense sunk in. And you started seeing the value is just completely shredded in Canada. We saw as a result. And the ripple effect of that is that it really started affecting available capital and U.S. market, both in the public side and more important than the private side. So if you think of U.S. companies as kind of the proverbial baby with the bathwater, they are getting destroyed as well in value because of the perceived risk that was kind of attached to how people were viewing Canada. So 2018 is just a really tough time. And unfortunately, we haven't really seen a recovery come out of that yet. We've seen asset values drop to have more appropriate levels of where you want to invest. But actually finding people that want to invest in those assets becomes significantly more difficult. As you know, most guys wanted appetite for for this market are now underwater on their portfolio and they're trying to figure out kind of how to salvage what they already have rather than making new investments.
Jim Marty: [00:08:34] Right. Right. Which makes it a difficult time to bring new projects to these same investment groups where they're still reeling from the losses that they've incurred. You know, one of my comments is that we can get into profitability in taxation, especially in California. But many of these publicly traded Canadian companies were reverse mergers on the Canadian stock exchange of US Cannabis companies. And as a CPA and an accountant. And one of the things people really underestimate is the extra layer of expense you have when you're a publicly traded company. You have filings, you have audits, you have accountants. You have a whole layer of bureaucracy that a privately held company doesn't have. And, you know, with the taxation, the after tax margins for Cannabis companies, a lot of times they're not strong enough to support that extra layer of bureaucracy. Larry and Rob, I'll be quiet and let you comment on that.
Larry Mishkin: [00:09:37] Well, I I think that that's true, Jim, in terms of what you say, that you do build that. But if you forgive me, I have a much simpler question, but at least it's a simple question for me, Rob, because it's not very often you get the opportunity to talk to somebody who really has to command the knowledge of the market in the industry that he has. And here's what it is. I sit around with a lot of my friends and I work two hats. One hat that I wear is I'm a lawyer in the industry. I have a certain amount of expertise up to whatever level people want to believe that I know what I'm talking about. And, you know, that's all very good. My other hat is I'm just a big fan of marijuana. And like anybody else who's a fan of marijuana, I like to go to the local dispensary or whatever. I can find my marijuana, especially when we're off shelter. Good for a while. This is a question that I get and I'm not smart enough to answer it. I'll just. You just got done talking about me when I hear that. I'm thinking, well, this is information that I need to know if I want to be an investor in this industry. What does all of that mean for the average consumer who just wants to be able to go to their dispensaries? Are we still going to have supplies? Are prices going to go through the roof? Should it just be business as usual? How do we translate that information to something that the common marijuana smoker can understand and appreciate?
Rob Hunt: [00:10:59] It's a great question. And, you know, oftentimes I get wrapped up in the minutia of, you know, what it means from this side of the table. And I forget that the average consumer of Cannabis doesn't care about any of that. What they care about are a couple of very simple points. One is price. One is access. One is safety. You know, that's primarily kind of what drives decisions. You know, I always look at it from the perspective and, you know, use an analogy to kind of go through this. I think about it, 1933 looked like for alcohol prohibition as was repealed. And there's a prevailing belief that the second that prohibition was repealed, that immediately people started using liquor stores as their primary way to access alcohol. When you go after multiple years of prohibition, it didn't happen overnight. You still had the rum runners and you still had the Brazilians and the Kennedys crossing the Canadian border. And you still had bathtub gin and you still had, you know, Becks, you know, backwoods moonshine stills. So what it took to really migrate people over. And, you know, you can look at the history of Washington state as you think about this is creating a more efficient marketplace. And that more efficient marketplace, you know, said, OK. In order for people to make this migration over, we've got to be able to offer a better selection, a safer selection at a better price. And if we do, then then that migration happens relatively quickly. If not, then we're artificially keeping alive an illicit market and that illicit markets going to stay well entrenched. You know, they already have the market share it now. They don't want to give it up. And that's you know, that's what we're seeing right now in Cannabis. We're not just seeing it in the producer states like the Washington's oregons and California's.
Rob Hunt: [00:12:35] But we're seeing it in the consumption states. You know, it's if you think about where you are in Illinois or, you know, let's say New York City, those states never had a robust cultivation culture, but they certainly had a consumption culture. So when you think about the illegality or the illicit market in California, it's very, very different than the illicit market in Chicago. Chicago's illicit market is truly on the consumption side. They're importing Cannabis from out of state and they're consume that there. But it still represents a huge portion of the industry in California. It's twofold. It's the production side that's happening in the northern counties and it's the consumption that's happening, you know, from the from the consumer. So as a consumer, thinking about, you know, was all this stuff made for me? Look, it's if if their guy can deliver Cannabis at a cheaper price with a decent selection than the illicit market stays viable and stays attractive. If the if the tax rates drop low enough in California and enough municipalities open up retail stores, then suddenly it becomes more efficient just to go down to your local dispensary. You know, all things being equal on the margin, I'm going to buy Cannabis from the legal place. I know it's been tested. I know it's safe. I know what's in it. I know where it came from. And the prices is commensurate. And the and the convenience is better. You know, it's I can do it at my time instead waiting for my guy to show up. So that's that's the major issue that we're dealing with right now is how do you migrate over the illicit market to the legal and how do you do it at a price that is attractive?
Jim Marty: [00:14:02] Very good point. Rob. And let's talk a little bit about the one of the barriers to that change over it. And, you know, many people say over the next three to five years, there's going to be a big transition in California from the illicit to the legal market. But one of those hurdles is taxation, taxation at the cash register and Telekom's can be as much as 40 percent. Would you comment on that?
Rob Hunt: [00:14:27] Yeah. Yeah. It's something that I've been thinking a great deal about because, you know, as asset values have dropped him, what we're seeing is, you know, a lot of people outside of the industry right now talking about the fact that, you know, Cannabis executives are ill qualified to run these businesses. They don't have to run efficient business. And I don't think that any of those executives have never worked in Kansas, have any idea what kind of headwinds you face. Cannabis operator to deal with these tax rates. You just alluded to, you know, when you think that the state's excise tax rate is 15 percent on top of a municipal tax rate, that could range from 5 to 15 percent, then you think that a cultivation tax that, you know, is north of $150 per pound for every cultivator and then you think about the distribution tax and the manufacturing tax and then the Cannabis business tax of another 10 percent. And then on top of that, you've got the granddaddy tax them all and intuiting E at the retail level specifically. You know, it's almost impossible. You know, these these businesses are being set up to fail. And I mentioned in the process right now writing an article exactly about this where. During Kobie, I found myself with some free time on my hands, some self publishing articles on linked in to talk about the other California market issues ahead going into Kohat in taxes, primarily the one driving factor that's keeping the illicit market artificially alive.
Rob Hunt: [00:15:44] It's because there's too many people with their hands in the pockets of the Cannabis operators. But there's very, very little chance without massive amounts of scale that these guys can operate profitably because of how many people are taking a piece of their business out, where the smarter way to do it and saying that Gavin Newsom is governor out here is finally starting to realize it's much better to have a lower tax rate. The taxes. One hundred percent of the market, that is to have a really high tax rate that at most is only hitting twenty five percent of the market because the other 75 percent is still in the illicit market. So it's how do you find that balance? And then once you once you've eradicated the illicit market, then you can start migrating a higher tax rate back in has like you know, the analogy I give here is, is the oil industry where, you know, as oil prices go up in Saudi Arabia, it incentivizes the Canadian tar sands producers to turn on their production. But if oil prices drop like they are right now, then there's no way the tar sands guys are even like the Americans can make a profit. So as prices fluctuate up, then it introduces new entrants in the market. And for us and Cannabis, that's the illicit market. And hopefully it's an appropriate analogy.
Jim Marty: [00:16:49] No, it's very good. I agree 100 percent. People don't realize how hard it is to be profitable in this industry. I work with my clients all the time and those very issues and you have to have enough gross profit to be able to pay your taxes and your overhead and still have something left over for you.
Jim Marty: [00:17:09] Larry, before we go over to music, do you have any more business you'd like to talk about?
Larry Mishkin: [00:17:14] Well, it's such a trite question and people always just need your jump to it. I get asked that all the time and rarely do I have a chance to pass it on to somebody else. So, Rob, let me ask you this. Sorry to put you on the spot, but where we had such really where we go in and listen, what are we going to see change in federal law?
Rob Hunt: [00:17:34] The best guess I'll try to go through as quickly as possible. But my guess is that, you know, we're still five years out from federal legalization. Know it will come. But, you know, realistically, you know, again, Crovitz changing things quickly, because I think for the first time, I don't think most of the country is necessarily expecting that Trump will win a second term based on where the economy is right now. But I think as of a month and a half ago, the smart money was that he would the smart money also is that the Republicans were going to hold the Senate. So if you think there's a three a three person majority in the Senate today and you know, even if was even you've got a tie breaking vote vise President Pence. It was a really unfavorable set of that in this election cycle. So maybe the Dems pick up Martha McSally a seat in Arizona and maybe they pick up Susan Collins a seat in Maine. Maybe they pick up Thom Tillis, a seat in North Carolina. But they're certainly losing they're definitely picking up Gardner's seat in Colorado. I think at this point. But they're definitely losing Alabama. You know. The album is not going to run Roy Morgan. So even if we pick up for the Dems to for Republicans are getting one back, which still puts it best if, you know, if Trump wins reelection 50 50 in the in the Senate, and that's if the Dems like run the table. And I think that's, you know, relatively unlikely as well.
Rob Hunt: [00:18:52] But even if it even if that were to happen, you know, let's say the Dems won the presidency, let's say the Dems won the one, the Senate, the first thing that they're doing isn't deal with Cannabis policy. You know, they're dealing with immigration reform. They're dealing with medical insurance reform. There's no health care is so much more of an important part of the Dem budget or dump platforms and candidacies. So, you know, realistically, as long as the Republicans have control of the Senate, which I think likely is, at least for the next two years, nothing gets out of committee. You know, it either goes to propose desk or it goes to, you know, Lindsey Graham's desk or whoever is going to end up running judiciary. And then there's those guys bugs. And if they do put the Senate floor or put it to, you know, McConnell's desk, then the call is not going to introduce it if he doesn't think it's not going to be vetoed by the president. And if Trump sees as a democratically sponsored bill, which it would be, he's going to veto it on principle unless it comes with, you know, 10 billion dollars in war funding. So there is no movement happening right now realistically in the Senate. And that means or certainly not anything happening in the executive branch. But that's that can change. It doesn't change by the composition of the Senate. It changes by how many states that are large population states like Illinois.
Rob Hunt: [00:20:08] You know, going to adult you. So it has like Ohio, like Pennsylvania, New Jersey, potentially New York, Florida. If those states move to adult use in several years, it doesn't matter, you know, who's in control of the Senate. Those are states that politically move the needle. And if they start deriving legitimate amounts of tax revenue that's impacting the coffers of their state, then you're going to see those statehouses. A lot of pressure on the guys in D.C. to say, look, guys like we can't keep operating something that's this big. The way we're operating it. Something's got to change. And whether or not you think that this isn't a priority for you, we're here to tell you that. You know, we represent a massive amount of your constituency and we have to change it. So I think it happens more naturally than it does by the nature of, you know, which side of the aisle you rest on. It's going to happen by, you know, how much the population has a robust adult use market. And I think for prior four years away from seeing the states I just mentioned, all have, you know, three or four years of history where actually those programs are up and running and really producing. And that's, you know, following where we're Colorado, how long it took Colorado to ramp up and how long took Washington to wrap up. I think four years of ramp up in adult use is about where you started and kind of steady state.
Larry Mishkin: [00:21:18] Well, let me ask you this as a follow up. Would you say that some of those factors you just got on listing as to what might hold up a bill? Are those actively played a role right now in keeping the Safe Banking Act from being considered in the Senate?
Rob Hunt: [00:21:30] It's a good question. You know. I think there's always I think there's fluctuating views on what's going to take to get that through. But yeah.
Rob Hunt: [00:21:38] I think that there is no motivation right now to get it out of the Senate. You know, I think you can put almost any bill right now on the floor of the House and it's going to get a committee hearing and it's going to get a vote in the committee. And it certainly will probably make it to the House floor. But once it goes to the Senate, you know, it's like if McConnell said anything pretty overtly that we should listen to, it said he is the grim reaper and he is where bills go to die. You know, any bill that's been passed by the Dems hits his desk. He just disregards it. He has no intention of doing a. McConnell has one goal in mind right now, and that's confirming judges has nothing to do with Democratic legislation. So, you know, let's let's call for what it is and know that if it's a bill that came to his desk because the Dems passed it, unless it's like, you know, tacked on as a rider, they can't it's the banking bill as a rider to a must pass piece of legislation. You know, maybe something that happens during quoted that, you know, gets tacked on. We'll see. But if we look at what's happened with Cauvin so far, it's actually been, you know, prejudice against Cannabis businesses as far as, you know, their lack of access to SBA right now. So it's I don't I we can't look at the federal government right now with Cannabis on anything and think through our friends.
Dan Humiston: [00:22:47] They just aren't going to take a quick break to thank you for listening to today's show and to invite you to listen to all the other great MJ JPL's Cannabis podcast, like Raising Cannabis Capital, the show which features Cannabis entreprenuers that are raising money to expand their organization. Tune in each week on Thursdays and Sundays to hear founders of awesome Cannabis companies talking about their business and their fundraising plans. Who knows? Maybe you'll discover the future Amazon or Apple of Cannabis on the Raising Cannabis Capital podcast.
Jim Marty: [00:23:23] I agree with all that. And sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
Jim Marty: [00:23:29] You know, we can advise our clients and we can mitigate the effects of not being able to deduct your selling general and administrative expenses.
Jim Marty: [00:23:39] You know, if that gets fixed, what comes next is that a federal Lefkow's tax, which government agency is going to be the first one to knock on your door will be the FDA, Food and Drug, Alcohol, Tobacco. So the environment we have right now is an environment we've dealt with for 10 or 12 years and we've turn to know the rules. I just said the repeal of two leaders might bring on a host of other government intervention in our industry that we have no idea what it might be.
Rob Hunt: [00:24:09] Another great point, Jim, and something I've been talking about now for probably seven years of, you know, everyone talks about reclassifying Kansas way from Schedule 1. And my my reaction is, careful what you wish for. You know, you got to schedule 2 or schedule 3 and now you're in the purview of the FDA. The FDA doesn't recognize dispensaries, recognizes double blind placebo studies and going through forward thinking drug development.
Larry Mishkin: [00:24:33] Isn't that what we just rated? Who is CBD? Right. CBD legal. And the next day the FDA says, hey, we're regulating it now. And all of a sudden CBD edibles, which people will be for years, are going to have to go through all of those studies. So yeah, that's a that's an excellent.
Rob Hunt: [00:24:47] Yeah. And that's that's true of, you know, what you're gonna see on other parts as well. I mean if you completely do schedule canvas. Yeah. So it actually falls in the purview of ATF. We don't know if they're going to do what we know right now. Is there a reason none of these people are picking up nose alphabet agencies or picking Cannabis up right now? It's because of the Schedule 1 status where as far as they're concerned, it doesn't exist in anyone's purview. So it's largely still uncharted waters. And the other thing I caution people is, you know, that's great that right now, you know, you think illegality is such a bad thing. But if you're an investor in this space, remember that the second that, you know, illegality ends, in the second that you have TVG and KKR and Blackstone and every other major private equity group does get involved and anyone that's in there right now. Hopefully they've got enough stakes in the ground. They can be sellers that point. But if not, years can get run over. So, you know, the best thing you can have happen to you is five years of building a business to the point that, you know, it's actually profitable and strong and an attractive acquisition target or it's, you know, something that you can then put on the New York Stock Exchange. But right now, there's very few of those groups. So illegality in many ways is your friend as an investor and as an entrepreneur.
Jim Marty: [00:25:52] Well, that's a great need, a transistor to talk about some music. How about a friend of the devil is a friend of mine?
Rob Hunt: [00:26:00] Yeah. Look is going from one outlaw culture to another. You know, I think there on the bus or off the bus. Right.
Jim Marty: [00:26:07] So you've got some history with the Grateful Dead to every injury family can tell us about her.
Rob Hunt: [00:26:12] Yeah. You know, I'll preface with saying that, you know, not not super well, but I've had the unique experience over the last several years of getting those guys a little bit due to the fact that we pitched them on trying to do a grateful that brand and doing a Garcia brand of Cannabis and through the process. You know, I was able to spend a fair amount of time with the Grateful Dead managers, guys named Bernie Cahill and Greg Souce over at Activist. And and then, you know, Garcia's manager, as well as a guy named Mark Allen down at Red Light and the Grateful Dead and the Garcia family were very interested in doing Cannabis and the price of the innocent reasons. Garcia family did make a decision to work with the team out of out of the Northeast. Yeah, but from my perspective, you know, that had my entire adult life. So my first show at age 16 in New York City, nine 2088 I think was my first show at MSJ. Yeah, I saw 147 Grateful Dead shows with Garcia and didn't miss a Jerry Van show for the last two years, his life.
Rob Hunt: [00:27:13] You know, for me, it was a passion thing. Like, you know, tuatara by my company at the time had just on the Willie Nelson transaction. And my reaction is, you know, hey, I think Willie's an absolute star and he's done amazing things for Cannabis. But, you know, if you really want you know that the band that in my mind, you know, represented canvas culture, you had to go with the Grateful Dead. So I made a real push internally to try to do something with those guys. And then the process was introduced to members of various family and spent a fair amount of time with their attorneys and with their managers. And, you know, it ultimately didn't work out. But I made some great friends out of the process. And to this day, keep in touch a lot of those guys and really, really feel fortunate that when I do see the people that I consider to be the true grateful, that family that I'm now embraced by that by that group of people. And I feel really, really fortunate to have had that opportunity for sure.
Larry Mishkin: [00:28:04] That's a great opportunity. That's, you know, for all the all the Deadheads, you don't want to become buddies with somebody on the inside. You know, to have a chance to do it is this great and a lot of fun. But what I liked about your answer is it's very clear that this isn't just a business arrangement for you. This is your your your relationship with the Grateful Dead long predates that. I think you said at least Tex 1988's and. That's fantastic. That's really what drives Jemini, I think is the first time we met, we talked business for five minutes and so we started talking the Grateful Dead and then we never quite got back around to business. Then you and I rather had more than our share of late night time rotations and some of these conferences comparing shows and ARA's of the Bad and all sorts of things like that. Give me a give us one or two of your know, Grateful Dead with. You know, three or four highlights of what you saw back in the day.
Rob Hunt: [00:29:04] I mean, OK, so first I'll preface this by saying that, you know, I'm forty seven now, which meant that, you know, I caught the last seven or eight years of grateful that I did great for the number of shows I saw that I missed the late 70s. I missed the early 80s. And for me, you know, 88 as a 16 year old was about as well as you could do. So there's a lot of people that think, you know, I didn't I didn't see the the best of the best without that then. But respectfully disagree. I think some of the best things ever happened happened in the late 80s and early 90s. Not necessarily full shows, but definitely like, you know, single highlights. But things that I got to do. Let's see. I think as a whole show 6:14. 6:14. Ninety one.
Rob Hunt: [00:29:45] Rfk was probably the favorite show that I saw, which is a helps of Franklin's estimated arc start up in the second set, which is ironically the same same opening of the second set that happened in nineteen ninety one with Branford Marsalis. So obviously the band like that combination well enough that when they brought Branford out they did it again. Let's see, I caught the first Branford show at three twenty nine ninety, which was the eyes estimated second set opener and the bird song in the first set which is you know kind of regarded this as really special. Some kind of theme that wasn't as high calcium. Yes. 328 three twenty nine three thirty is three night run. And I still think the twenty eighth was probably my favorite show of the three but I called all three of those. Amazing. You know I think that whole March nineteen ninety run, you know, you had you had NASA, you had Albany, you had Hartford which were an outer space as Warlock shows, you know, a short like fifteen show I think spring tour and those caps and it was Phil's 50th birthday at the caps and Rimland over they broke out these Lucy. So it's just an amazing, amazing run to see a lot of these kinds of bigger breakouts that happened during that time. So I saw the other dude speedway boogie break out in Oakland. I saw the Here Comes Sunshine break out in Tempe, Arizona. I got to see the black throw the windbreak out in Landover. I saw the introduction of a lot of the new songs like so many roads first time played, days between, first time played.
Rob Hunt: [00:31:11] And, you know, the thing I think that sticks out for me is, you know, the best part of it was that I got to see the last 37 grateful that shows in a row. You know, every single one of them up all the way to Chicago. So you I saw the good and the bad that happened during that time. There's some really crappy shows in that final tour, but there are small. So there's some things that were amazing, like, you know, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh second said open air was pouring rain. They played for rain songs in a row. But even though I might not have been something, you know, that you look back on, say it was the best played thing I've ever seen. It was one of things that at the time was was pretty spectacular to be there for, you know, I feel that way. Have you seen Deer Creek shows? You know, I don't think you can ever go wrong with that venue. You know, Deer Creek was canceled one night of that tour and the other night was mediocre. But there's still Deer Creek. And, you know, there's a lot of a lot of things you look back on and think, you know, nineteen ninety five, like, you know, that the breaking out of Vision's Jahad that was played a couple times that year, you know, absolutely amazing. The first one in Salt Lake City was on to me one of the more magical things that I've seen. So a lot of good stuff that happened during that period.
Jim Marty: [00:32:15] Those are some great memories. It brings back a lot of memories for me, too. I certainly was in the groove at that time as well. I did a lot of Red Rock shows in the 80s. I was at the last Grateful Dead show at Red Rocks in 87 when they outgrew the venue. My last show was very sad show because Jerry just wasn't in good health was three months before he passed away in May of 95 in Las Vegas at the Silver Bowl. And so that's a fun, sad memory.
Rob Hunt: [00:32:45] Yeah. So every Vegas show they played, they played it five years in a row. And I think a total of 14 shows over five years. Great venue, the Super Bowl with a lot of fun. And there's always a, you know, most the time super, super hot and said Hemp place would like heat lightning in the background. So it always made for a spectacular visual.
Jim Marty: [00:33:05] If you remember, there was a thermometer above the stage, right above where Jerry was playing at midnight. It would show 100 degrees.
Rob Hunt: [00:33:13] I remember being hosed down inside there, inside the Phil zone just to keep people from passing out on the floor. All those shows was so darn hot.
Jim Marty: [00:33:23] Then now 60000 of us would head down town to Las Vegas and party all night.
Larry Mishkin: [00:33:29] And you know what the funniest part about that was? Nobody stood out of the Las Vegas crowd, right, a few if you all went to downtown Chicago afterwards, you be like, oh, there's the Deadheads, walk you to the casinos. And it's kind of hard to tell them that Deadheads are from everybody else. They all look a little crazy.
Jim Marty: [00:33:43] I remember one time I was at a table. I went to most of those Vegas shows, too, and I was playing blackjack after the show late at night. Loud and rowdy casino thegood slots, often next to Circus Circus. And the dealers were kind of getting down on the Deadheads, you know, sort of, you know, dissonant and putting them down. I said, hey, to the dealer, there's a cheer up. These guys are really bad card players.
Larry Mishkin: [00:34:06] Right.
Rob Hunt: [00:34:07] And they're all stoked, even though like two thirds of the Grateful Dead songs are about playing cards. Exactly. You think we'd be a little better at it?
Larry Mishkin: [00:34:15] Well, no, but but most of their songs are about being bad at playing parts.
Rob Hunt: [00:34:19] Exactly. Yeah, that's true. But not knowing it. I think this whole idea of loser.
Jim Marty: [00:34:25] I was still pretty high from the show one night in Vegas and I was absolutely clairvoyant. I busted that dealer so many times the table was cheering for me.
Rob Hunt: [00:34:35] That's really funny because Jim, I spent most my time in lots of fun after those shows because I was back before. You know, a lot of the really big hotels we know today in Vegas were built in circus. Circus was like a pretty viable place to stay. So there was lots of funding like these spots that like half of the show with AMC out, too. So I'm sure that you and I pride past each other and rub shoulders back then for Rhea.
Jim Marty: [00:34:57] We knew each other and I bet we did. I played a lot of blackjack after the shows us one of them.
Larry Mishkin: [00:35:01] But the question is where I was healthier for the 92 shows. Steve Miller, Europe. And we were the big whole group of guys and we wound up staying at the Golden Nugget in downtown Las Vegas. And with that room. And it was fun. It was so, you know, a slightly different scene. But they had the midnight steak and egg breakfast and all the dead. That's right. After the shows. And it was it was tremendous fun for me. It was wonderful because I was like Steve Miller. Then there was the whole fly like an eagle or some of that stuff of the 70s. He got a little too touchy for me. I loved seeing him up on stage with the dad. And, you know, he was playing guitar right along with them having a good time.
Rob Hunt: [00:35:39] Oh, my goodness. Then I had to take issue with it. I thought that was the worst morning do I ever saw, really?
Rob Hunt: [00:35:46] Steve Miller do and write it. I think that's the point before, you know, I guess it doesn't matter anyways. And you've got the soaring solo that for me makes a morning to guess. That was like they couldn't turn Steve down. I remember like Phil looking over at the monitors, like basically giving this looking like turn this asshole down. Like physically cannot. Steve playing like this. And I remember just saying they're going to come on like all the great dudes. Why is Steve Miller up there doing this right now? And I met Steve Miller fan as well. It's not that I dislike him as a player.
Rob Hunt: [00:36:17] I just start out a terrible mix between him.
Jim Marty: [00:36:20] A Kurt, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't check very open from when you're in Vegas.
Rob Hunt: [00:36:25] I want to say, yes, I know Santana was one year. I know Steve Miller was one year. But I think Chuck Berry was one year as well. Actually, if it wasn't, it might have been Chuck Berry actually made in Portland Meadows. I think he might be in Portland, Oregon, in ninety three or ninety five.
Larry Mishkin: [00:36:39] And what year they had Roger with little food for them.
Rob Hunt: [00:36:43] I'm going to Google this right now because I can't stand not knowing.
Larry Mishkin: [00:36:46] So here's my next question for you, though, Rob. Let's say, you know, you use some words and enough Ted shows with Jerry that, you know, you you know that side of your platter very well. What do you think of John Mary Derrick Company? Are you a fan? Do you like go to their shows?
Rob Hunt: [00:37:02] You know, I've only seen them play one time and it was because, you know, the managers of Debt and CO invited me to go to the show and I graciously accepted saw them at the Hollywood Bowl last year and had a really nice time. Look, I think John Therecent exceptional blues guitar player. For me, it's difficult. You know, like I'm a I'm a Grateful Dead fan, you know, for sure. But I'm a Garcia. Then Garcia fan first. And for me, like Garcia band was probably the thing that if you're say you pick your favorite band, go see live and you know, your favorite music to listen to. It's definitely JJB Over the Grateful Dead.
Larry Mishkin: [00:37:40] I'm. On any given night, I would just as soon see the Jerry Garcia band as the Grateful Dead.
Rob Hunt: [00:37:45] Yeah. I mean, I think for me on any given night I was taking it, you know, nine times out of 10, I would have taken the Garcia band. I think that that's the absolute pinnacle of Garcia. So I was with the Grateful Dead, but for consistency sake, you know, going to work feels like going to church. And, you know, every night you go in there, you could sit there, have dinner and have drinks service and sit and watch your favorite musician play with, you know, Melbourne playing Keys and John come playing baseness that as good as it. But. But. But, yeah. You know, it's with John Mayer playing with him. Like anything that keeps this alive and keeps this whole thing moving forward, I think is incredible. And I think that John Mayer is obviously plays really well with the band. They really respect him as a player. They've played enough together. Now that there's times that, you know, I'll be listening to serious radio and I won't look down to see what it is. And I'll take that. It's, you know, grateful that playing is dead and co. So there's definitely times where, you know, I'm amazed at how well he's got the tone down sort of the way that John Kabbalistic did for a while when he's playing it further, you know.
Rob Hunt: [00:38:43] But right now, if you're saying, you know, would you guess he didn't care or do you see a different generation? Like I'd probably go see Joe Roussos almost dead before I'd see dead. And co just the energy right now for J. Rad is just so high. But anything that keeps the Grateful Dead tradition going. I think I've just done one hundred percent supportive. And for me, I don't play favorites. You know, I'm just so super stoked. Has become such a part of the American tradition of music that I don't think this is going away any more than I think like Mozart and Bach and Beethoven are going away. I think it's it's too big, too it's too prevalent. And I think that the other certain songs, the American canon of music, you know, if you think about like the great American novel versus like the Great American Songbook, you know, I think REPL will go down as a song that kids will be singing at camp in 50 years. And I love that.
Larry Mishkin: [00:39:26] One of the things that Jim and I always talk about and this fits right into it. Is it with one of the things that we love the most is that we go to these shows. I go to the dead, I go see fish, and I go with my kids, bring my kids with me, and they want to go and they want to be there. And it's something that we can do together. We both love the music. And it always makes me laugh because to this day, I can tell you that if I walked into my father's living room and went through his record collection, I don't think there's a single record in there that I would really have any true which rested listening to unless we were paying for it for a good show tune or something. Right. My father never really had all that much interest in the music that I was listening to. But I loved the way that the dad completely spanned the generations. And Jim, let me tell you. Tell me about your son as well. His sons played with one of the top cover bands around. It's fantastic.
Jim Marty: [00:40:17] That's awesome. Yes. He's at the top keyboard players in Denver. He plays at Deonte where dead bands play all the time. John Kato's took his play there recently. And now we have a lot of conversations at my house with our two sons. And I'll come back around and we'll be planning their future. And I'll just say to them, that passes for your steps, you know?
Rob Hunt: [00:40:42] Absolutely.
Rob Hunt: [00:40:43] I'll give you an anecdote. I lost my father about 13 years ago, and he was never supportive of me being a Deadhead when I was out on tour with the band. But the day that he passed, I went and checked his. He had a five disc C.D. changer and four out of the five. This changer where we're Garcia, which you gave me just amazing thrill, you know. He he became a big Garcia Grisman fan. I had is what got him into it when he started listening to more of the double live disc of Garcia band from the early 90s. But as well as things that, you know, when I open it up and got to see that he'd come around with my heart in a way that you have no idea. And now I'm watching it with my kids were four and five. And, you know, I'd love to say they're grateful that fans they're not grateful that fans, they are huge Phish fans, though.
Rob Hunt: [00:41:29] My daughter at age 5 knows all the words to meet Stack and all the words, the Halley's Comet. And she's singing a song until you're 20 different Phish songs. And they're like, we get in the car and they put fish on, which to me is incredible.
Rob Hunt: [00:41:41] And she loves the fact that there's a lot of fun songs like Contact or Feet that that she can sing. But whenever I play Grateful Dead songs, I try to get her into ones I think would be served really nice. They can be a working man's dead American Beauty style like American ballads that she get into. And she just hasn't hit yet. It will, but it hasn't yet.
Jim Marty: [00:41:59] And how about you? Robin Thicke?
Rob Hunt: [00:42:01] How about new fish? I love fish. They kermie like, you know, when Trey played with when Trey play with the dead for fare thee well. That was a dream come true. You know, I started seeing fish before I started seeing the dead. My first fish shows, you know, when Burlington Marvelyn us 13 or 14 years old, just happenstance. And I went on fish to our full summer, fish to our in 1991 when there was like twelve of us on fish store. And so like, you know, my in many ways, like my first love is a band that I felt close to where I knew all the band members and got to hang out with those guys in the early 90s. You know, fish is really accessible. And so, you know, I've seen far more dead shows. But over the years, I still try to catch fish two or three times a year. And, you know, I still count toward them. You know, I watch fish a lot more than I see any other band because there's so much of what they've done in the last 10 years. They can pull up on YouTube. That is just amazing sound quality and great visual quality. So hard not to like those guys. If you were to say, you know who my favorite guitarist is, Mike Garcia, it's Hunter percent. Hard to deny just how amazing trades as a guitar player.
Jim Marty: [00:43:05] Couldn't agree more. Larry and I actually were hooked up that fairly well in Chicago for the 50th. Know what I always remember about that show is I believe the first song was Box of Rain, but the second song was the second song. There are repl those extras. And I recall just went to the stadium.
Rob Hunt: [00:43:30] The energy was being incredible, which, by the way, is happened to be the Garcia's attorney's favorite Grateful Dead song. I'm a huge, huge fan, Jack Straw, as well as the first time I ever saw the dead play in a 9:28. Eighty nine 2088 was Jack Straw for a moment TRYED Big River and opened the first set. So that was a call. I'll never forget the feeling of seeing Jack Straw for the first time.
Larry Mishkin: [00:43:53] So here, when you talk about fishing and all of that, you know, I'm a little combative fish because I was I was so invested in the dad first and then his fish was coming on the scene. I had already gotten into kids and all of that. And I just didn't have the bandwidth to go out and pull them in as well. But I've developed a whole new appreciation for them over the years. And, you know, as time goes by, my appreciation develops more. So this last year, I realize the trade is now the same age as the jury was when Jerry died. Yet your stray still alive, still ticks. And, you know, we could get into a whole different. Discussion about how he handled his heroin problem and how his bandmates supported him versus what happened with the dead. But be that as it may, he's he's to me now. The living example of what I always kinda thought Jerry would be all material, be there forever will be old. And we'll still go see Jerry. We'll do a Nathalie's trace still playing. But he's he's playing hard and strong and good. But the other part of it is with Trey. This ties into what you were saying before about going to see Dudding Company, which I completely agree with everything you said. And I'm glad you were able to say it in a way that I've never quite been able to say it. But a few years ago, my wife and I were vacationing out in Jackson, Wyoming, and she has a cousin who has a daughter who lives out there.
Larry Mishkin: [00:45:10] And Tiger's is old enough that, you know, she's just at that age where she just missed Jerry, but really got dived into fish and and plus the Grateful Dead buzz anyway. And, you know, knows all about them. And and and she and her husband love to go see dad and company. And we were talking about it. I was trying to explain to them why I do like that and company. And it's funny, like you say, the scene and just continuing all of that is great because the end of the day, it's just it's not really the same. They kept saying, oh, but, you know, how can you say that John Mayer is such a good guitar player? So I finally turned to them. And, you know, I was very proud of myself for this. And I said to them. Magin going to see fish with John Mayer playing lead guitar instead of a Greek guitar player will do it, but. That's right. It's not very it's. It's John Mayer and I love it. And I thought it was great when they let him. You know, jurys, wolf's guitar. I thought that was amazing. I don't know if I'm going to go out here a show. Know I have a choice between one or the other. I'll take what I have and enjoy it. But, you know, you just have to understand and appreciate that for guys like us who saw the real thing. We're going to quite do the same.
Jim Marty: [00:46:19] Hey, listen, guys, we run way over time. I could talk to you about this all afternoon. I want to make a maybe place a marker in closing that as we sit here today and company has not canceled their summer tour. Let's hope they don't. Let's hope this pandemic subsides and we can go back to having concerts again. But thank you very much, Rob. Very good job. Really appreciate it. All your stories. Larry, thanks for all your input. Maybe we'll have you back again and we can pick this up with some more fish stories.
Rob Hunt: [00:46:50] I love that. Thanks, guys, for having me on. Lot of fun. Really, really enjoyed it.
Larry Mishkin: [00:46:54] That's what I always told the good shows because Jim's telling me it's time to stop. And I'm thinking we just got started.
Jim Marty: [00:47:00] Yes, I know. I think, Larry, you want to say this.
Larry Mishkin: [00:47:05] I will sign this off this week. Jim, whole pile as well with you and Cece. Continue to go well for you out in Colorado. Rob, as always, man, a pleasure to talk to you. It's been too long. We have a lot of catching up to do. Glad to hear things are going well for you.
Larry Mishkin: [00:47:17] Thank you so much for agreeing to spend a few minutes with us and share your words of wisdom both on marijuana and on the Grateful Dead and to all of our listeners.
Larry Mishkin: [00:47:28] Have a great week. Thank you for listening. Stay healthy. And we'll talk to you soon.
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