"Eyes Of The World" environmental message The Grateful Dead's song lyrics reflect their passionate concern for the environment. Marc Ross from Needle Consultants joins Larry Mishkin, Jim Marty and Rob Hunt to talk about his favorite environmentally conscious Dead Songs. He also discussed how he's applying his 25 years of experience as a corporate social responsibility professional and environmental attorney to the cannabis industry. Produced by PodCONX https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin https://podconx.com/guests/jim-marty https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt https://deadheadcyclist.com/ Check out Marc's podcast A Better World Podcast
"Eyes Of The World" environmental message
The Grateful Dead's song lyrics reflect their passionate concern for the environment. Marc Ross from Needle Consultants joins Larry Mishkin, Jim Marty and Rob Hunt to talk about his favorite environmentally conscious Dead Songs. He also discussed how he's applying his 25 years of experience as a corporate social responsibility professional and environmental attorney to the cannabis industry.
https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin
https://podconx.com/guests/jim-marty
https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt
Check out Marc's podcast A Better World Podcast
[00:00:00] Hello, Jim Marti here from sunny Longmont, Colorado. And I've got my partners here with me. Rob hunt and Larry, Michigan. How are you doing guys, Jim, always a pleasure to see you, Rob, welcome back for another show. The deadhead cannabis show is always a pleasure going forward with both of you and another great guest we have today, which we'll get to in a minute.
Chicago is cold and snowy. Exactly. Like it's supposed to be this [00:01:00] time of year, the polar vortex or whatever you want to call it is kicked in which gives us all a good excuse to stay indoors. Listen to a lot of grateful, dead and smoke. A lot of cannabis. Rob, you're the smart one in the group.
Cause you're living out where it's nice and warm. So how are things out there? Yeah, greetings from a sunny San Diego. This is Rob Hahn speaking from Linnea holdings and as always San Diego is warm and pleasant, but in the last two weeks, I've barely made it outside because the canvas industry is just moving at such a furious pace.
Right now that I'm spending 15 hours a day locked in my office. And maybe I make it between my my back door, my beer fridge out in the deck and come back in with a cold one every night after work is over. That's about as much as I've done besides the random mountain bike ride here and there. Gotcha.
So without any further ado, we are very lucky today to have another fine guest on our show. Mark Ross Mark is a I would say he would say by trade and environmental attorney, but in talking with him, we've discovered that it's a really, Oh, so much more that he brings to the table in addition to being a big fan of [00:02:00] the grateful dead as well.
And for those listeners that bear with us and listen to what Mark has to say at the end, we are going to be diving into a discussion of eyes of the world which Mark will be an eager participant. I know Jim has some comments lined up as do both Rob and I. So that should be a lot of fun.
We'll get to that in a few minutes. In the meantime, Mark. Welcome to our show. We're glad you could be with us today. Thanks. I'm so thrilled to be here today. That's fun. And it's the best part about this show is we've had an opportunity to really meet and get to know a lot of people in the cannabis world.
And you're another one of them give our listeners a 30 seconds of background on yourself. What you do by way of being an environmental attorney and what your connection is to the cannabis industry. Sure. So I, like you said, I'm an environmental attorney. I've been an environmental attorney for over 25 years, worked in the public sector.
As an environmental prosecutor, the private sector in a large law firm and for a fortune 100 in-house counsel. And then I created a national environmental advocacy, nonprofit that works with the music [00:03:00] industry before turning my attention to cannabis and not. It's an environmental attorney, but I wanted to do the nonprofity stuff without being a full-time attorney anymore.
So that led me to corporate social responsibility where I get to work on things like social impact and community outreach and sustainability and all the things that at this point in my career really give me lots of fulfillment. That's wonderful. I like that. Jim, cause as you and I have talked about, this is just another situation where cannabis, provides someone to be able to spin out of what they've been doing and, find another niche for their skills and go from there.
Yes. One of the things I noticed on your bio Mark is that you were a speaker at a ballroom music festival. Yeah. For 10 years I created an onstage interview program with artists and activists. Where I got to interview some of my heroes like Bonnie Raitt and Bob Weir and Michael Franti and Warren Haynes and John Bell from widespread panic.
And I got to talk to them, frankly, about not about music so much, although we did touch on music, but more about [00:04:00] their their activism, their philanthropy with John Bell, he just wanted to talk about solar power. Yeah, no, it was an exciting program. The guys. At Bonnaroo, the Superfly guys were gracious and opening their doors to allowing me to do that and providing me the resources to do that for 10 years.
That's fantastic. And I went to the first nine Bonner ruse, so our paths have come close to crossing. And for about eight of those years, I was had a press pass from our local newspaper here in Longmont, Colorado. So I got to ask a lot of questions in the press tent. Yeah, no, it was great. We also ran a film program in the when they had the film tent.
Around environmental documentaries, Mark, were you on the solar stage? Were you on Annabel stage when he did that? Annabel had the Sonic stage and I programmed this, she programmed the Sonic and I Prague program. The solar stage all day, every day. Yeah. I've seen a lot of a great program on both those stages.
So it's so great that, when you and I first met, it was through a Colorado production when I was working for all phases event group. And I think the first time [00:05:00] I remember hanging out with you is probably after Barack Obama's DNC speech, when I was managing the the press tent there.
And I remember speaking, for a long time going, okay, we need to get together and spend more time just from having so many common interests. And at the time I think you had you were still at Rockville, right? I was still at rock the earth then. How did you make the segue? I remember getting an email from you about four years ago, saying I'm migrating away from rock the earth.
And now I'm going to start moving into canvas. You didn't know what you were going to do in this space yet, but you were absolutely dedicated to saying this is the next path I have. So how did that transition and migration go from, where you were running a great philanthropy over to working in the industry directly.
Yeah, I had burned out rock the earth, had a great year of 2015, but it really crushed me in terms of burning me out. And I decided, like I said, I wanted to go back to the private sector. When I looked back on my career the private sector really was the place where I could have the most impact on a daily basis.
I felt. And so I started to network with corporate social responsibility and sustainability officers here in Denver and beyond, and a couple of key people within one [00:06:00] week. One from industry and one from government both suggested that I look at the cannabis industry because no one was really doing corporate social responsibility in a very thoughtful, strategic, ROI driven way.
And and sure enough, I started to poke around and talk to people in the industry. And then I started to get speaking gigs and then I started to write about it. And next thing I'm in the cannabis industry and in 2019, a large MSO called me and said, we hear you're the guy to scale and strategize our corporate responsibility program.
And so I went and did that. And so then I was all in, on the cannabis industry after that. And what are the issues Mark that you see with social responsibility in the cannabis industry? For 90% of the company using the cannabis industry, if they have corporate responsibility at all, it's usually just a philanthropy program.
That's bolted on to the company that, that it's not built in a strategic way, and it's not integrated throughout the company. And therefore it doesn't really come off as authentic. So you don't have the Patagonias the Ben and Jerry's the [00:07:00] new Belgium brewing companies in the cannabis industry yet you simply don't now I think this past summer with the black lives matter movement really accelerated the need for social impact.
And we're starting to see that in all the state licensing that's coming down the pike, whether it's New Jersey or New York, Illinois. Pennsylvania, where people are starting to talk about social equity and diversity equity and inclusion and justice. So that can definitely over overlap with corporate responsibility.
But I think, there's this, unfortunately, Just because of where cannabis is right now in its development. There's this perception that corporate responsibility is a nice to have and not a business imperative. When the fact of the matter is, as we are seeing a very changing business climate inside cannabis, as well as outside of cannabis, corporate responsibility, isn't just a nice to have anymore.
It's something that every company needs to have and the publicly traded ones are going to need to report on environmental, social and governance metrics. In [00:08:00] very short amount of time. And so there's an opportunity here in cannabis for us to not only create the kind of industry we would all like to see, but we're going to be forced to do it.
Mark, that's really interesting to hear, especially the part about social equity. The Illinois adult use program, which started last January and we had our first round of applications. Last spring social equity was built into the program very heavily. And in fact, constituted a significant.
Portion of the points such that candidates without social equity certification, didn't have a chance of getting a license. And on the one hand, while I certainly applaud Illinois effort to be a socially equitable state and to incorporate that in what we ultimately discovered, was it really wasn't social equity per se?
It might've been, it depends how you define social equity. Most people here thought social equity meant. A person of color or minority in that regard. And when all it really meant was you either lived in a particular neighborhood for a particular period of time. In other words, those neighborhoods that were [00:09:00] designated as being overburdened victims with the war on drugs disproportionately affected.
And then, or if you yourself were a victim of the war on drugs, which in Illinois just meant that you had been arrested, not convicted, but arrested. So of course you immediately had the situation. Of white, rich kids on the North shore who had of course been busted for marijuana somewhere along the way.
And all of a sudden they were social equity and it, there were consequences that I don't think were really properly thought through in that there was a rush to get the bill out the door and really take advantage of it. But, what have you seen in your work with people on and States and groups on social equity in terms of a real commitment to social equity, as opposed to.
Trying to create something where we can say, Hey, look, we have social equity in our program, even if it doesn't really work out that way. Yeah. Let's start with the concept. Of course we all know every state is different from state to state. And so we see all different kinds of ways that States are trying to engage in social equity.
Colorado, for example is just going back now years after we've had recreational or adult [00:10:00] use hearing in Colorado. What I don't see as being very helpful. Is where social equity started in this industry, which is we're just going to reserve a certain number of licenses for social equity applicants, but we're not going to provide them funding.
And we're not going to provide them with the knowledge of being able to take that license and actually execute on that license. So then we have these. Orphaned licenses or licenses that are then sold. And so one family or a small group of investors gets rich which is great if they're social equity, but it doesn't really create the impact that we're looking to have in those communities that were decimated by the war on drugs.
And so that's, that's. What we're starting to see now in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, where they're starting to talk about let's take tax dollars. And instead of building roads with them or recreational centers, or let's invest them back into the communities that were decimated by the war on drugs, let's provide no interest loans for people that want to come into the industry.
Let's also look at the full. Menu of license [00:11:00] options. So there, there obviously are, our transportation would be delivery would be an example one that's less in capital for people to get into. And so let's look at those licenses as well with regard to social equity, where there's a lower barrier of entry for folks.
And so I think this is an ever-evolving issue. I'm trying to do my best, frankly, as a, as a. 52 year old white guy to listen, especially since this past summer about what people want and not presume what a social equity program should look like from where I sit. I think that's an excellent point.
And that's the lesson that I learned when they brought the medical program out in Illinois. And I was working with a group that was going around to some of the various neighborhoods in Chicago to explain to people what the rules were and in some of the more minority Heavily populated neighborhoods.
We were getting a lot of pushback that we can ever be part of this program, or what do you mean streak you? No, they'll just arrest us on our way home from the dispensary. No, not if you have a card that you don't understand. They'll if we have the marijuana we're going to get [00:12:00] arrested and it, it began to open my eyes to the fact that things we take for granted aren't necessarily the way.
Everybody else sees them. And it's true if we're going to go anywhere in this industry we really have to do something and I'm actually proud to say that in Illinois, there's a number of groups that have taken it upon themselves in a not-for-profit manner to actually provide quite a bit of mentoring and education to low-income neighborhoods in minority neighborhoods.
And I actually was able to participate in some of those programs. And it was really great to see the number of people that turned out, when we're really being given an education on. The way the market works and the way the industry works and where it could go. But then unfortunately, as we saw, since everybody went and became social equity, none of these people wound up really getting licenses because they didn't have the resources to compete with all the other people who now also qualified as socialists.
Yeah. It's hard. It's hard to build out a business in the most capital intense, most highly regulated industry. In the history of the planet, but the one thing I think we can all agree on is that [00:13:00] there are 40,000 Americans sitting in jails right now, at least for cannabis in States where cannabis is now legal.
And that situation needs to be remedied. We need to have expungement. We need to have clemency and we need to get those folks out of jail. Yeah, I agree with that a hundred percent. Yeah. I think it's the great hypocrisy that. Know, these people are sitting in jail, watching an industry that they are prosecuted for that now is sprung up as legal around them yet they're still sitting there and they say, this is completely unfair that we haven't had the opportunity.
There's a timing issue for us. I also think that, the old gobbly style States, the specifically on the East coast, when they do an application process that only favors the best capitalized groups you can get in the application process to begin with. It's so prejudicial to not just, people of color, but also people of economic means that none of them can secure licenses because they just, they can never put their hat in the ring to start with.
So if you look at that compared to States like California, Washington, Oregon, and Colorado, those States, anyone that wanted to get a license in the early days was largely able to do even if they didn't have a tremendous amount of capital. And if [00:14:00] they actually were good operators, then they were able to make an impact in their market.
And and I'd really like to see a lot of the other States expand their programs in a very significant, meaningful way. To allow more people to come into the fold just based on economic viability. You're right. Robin. And one thing that's even almost worse is the people who can manage to scrape together enough money to get an application prepared and on file, but because that's all the resources they had, they don't have the ability to put together an application that's really going to compete with a much larger group.
And so as a result. Yeah. They, what do you tell these people? Oh my God, don't go for it. Okay. You're going to go for it. You're spending this money on applications that you're not going to get back and what we're seeing again and again, even on the little bit that we know Illinois has been a disaster in terms of issuing licenses.
So we're a bad example, but. The majority of these licenses are now going to the well-funded groups. If they're not multi-state operators that are largely large well-funded groups within the state that bring in the multi-state operator consultants to help them get it done. And it's [00:15:00] just it's very hard for the average person who has the resources submit an application to be able to submit one that's on par with those others.
Yeah. In the famous words of Abe, Yvonne Barksdale and stringer bell, and Barla Stanfield in the wire, the game is rigged. Yes. And then going back to what Mark said about you don't have a Ben and Jerry's out there yet. It's difficult to do that when that program would not be tax deductible to the corporation.
So along with the changes, we probably will see from the federal level, if the. Tax deductibility of these programs comes into play. That'll help too. That's fascinating. So what you're suggesting is the defy on a a retail dispensary. And I participate in these programs and provide value in a social equity way.
I may not be able to write that off because it's an ordinary business deduction. That's prohibited by two 80 E that's. Correct. And your wages. That were spent in that area. If you let your people, go into these [00:16:00] areas and, promote these programs, then you're paying them on payroll.
Those wages are not deductible. So Mark, I know that, away from just a ESG right now, environmentalist has always been a huge focus of everything you've done professionally. Where can the industry improve on environmental impact? And what are you seeing? I always think about it from the standpoint of, I sold, tons of light bulbs in my hydro stores when I owned the stores in Colorado.
And I tried to start a bold recycling program. Because every hid bulb that Hortilux produced or any other, manufacturer produced has a small amount of heavy metals in it. And those, ultimately end up in the water supply, if they're not disposed of properly and most growers didn't have a place to do it.
So I tried to Institute a policy of, everyone tacking on an extra five bucks on a bulb and then making sure there's a return policy. None of the other shops wanted to go for it. None of the big suppliers wanted to go for it. And I watched, hundreds of thousands of bolts on an annual basis essentially ended up in landfills.
That's just one small thing that for an industry that, it's funny that we grow green, but we're not a green industry. How do we get better and how do we improve from what you've seen? I think. As we push towards federal legalization, I [00:17:00] think, or after federal legalization happens. I think some of these issues will go away because you're going to start to see cultivation in climates where people aren't just growing and warehouses anymore, because we know here in Colorado, one of the largest users of energy at this point in Colorado are the grow houses, the warehouse grow houses.
And so energy usage is one of the. Probably largest issues for the cannabis industry in places like Oregon, Washington, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, here in Colorado. So there's energy. There are some great groups out there that are working to slay that beast. The resource innovation Institute out of the Pacific Northwest is great.
They've got a, an energy calculator that works with the cannabis industry. There's other sustainability consultants out there. Consulting cannabis companies on the reduction of energy usage, because it's not just lighting, it's HVAC, it's humidity control. When you have an indoor grow it's a lot of things.
Water usage in water sensitive areas like Arizona is another issue. But again, I think a [00:18:00] lot of the cultivation issues will start to settle in the coming years. Pesticides States have learned from the new States coming online, have learned from the first movers States like Colorado.
California Oregon Washington about pesticides and the testing, as you know that the testing requirements have gotten much, much more rigorous with every state that's coming online. So pesticides while being a big issue I think are also diminishing, as people are concerned about the health and safety.
And again, once we have EPA involved games over for using pesticides on smokable products. And then the last issue, which is the big consumer facing issue and that's packaging, it's the obvious issue. You walk into a dispensary, you leave sometimes you're required to have an exit bag.
Sometimes your flour is put into a child-proof container. That's put into another childproof container. That's put into an exit bag. It's ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous. There's great packaging solutions out there coming on board. But until we have a circular economy, but this goes for the entire consumer packaged [00:19:00] goods industry until we have a circular economy and we stopped drilling oil to make plastic.
And we start harvesting out of the ocean and we start putting it back into use and reuse again. The packaging issue isn't going to go away now. Thankfully, the cannabis industry. Can start to follow the lead of other companies and consumer packaged goods like Unilever and the beverage industry as to what they are doing with regard to a circular economy and packaging.
So we're not just trashing, the planet with all of our cannabis trash.
So that's a great segue to lead us into our grateful dead discussion today. It wasn't by accident that we invited you onto the show on this date, because I think as you're aware, 48 years ago yesterday, we're recording this on February 9th. We got the release of the first China doll.
The first here comes sunshine, the first loose Lucy, the first road, Jimmy, the first they love each other. The first wave, that flag, which ultimately turned it U S blues, as we all know. And most, I think for, a lot of grateful dead fans, we've got the first [00:20:00] eyes of the world. All of this happened at the Roscoe Maples pavilion at Stanford California on February 9th, 1972.
And when I approached you about coming on the show, I said, you know what song, in the grateful Dead's repertoire really speaks to you as being an environmental song. And I expected you to say we can run, I didn't think that you'd come back with us. And you came back and said, by far, in a way it's eyes of the world.
And I said, fantastic. Let's talk about, some of our favorite versions of eyes and some of our, the reasons why it resonates as an environmentalist. So hit us, let's talk eyes to the world. Yeah. We can run a great literal environmental song. It really is.
But eyes of the world, as someone who is heavily influenced by the grateful dead and probably changed my career trajectory because of the grateful dead eyes to the world is almost a command. And as the band is very apolitical and when they did get involved in issues, it was environmental issues.
When Jerry and Bobby spoke to Congress about old growth forests. When Bobby worked on his book with his sister, it was about the oceans. Environmental ism has always been an underlying theme in the grateful dead community. The imagery on the screens and the [00:21:00] nineties were often environmental images.
And eyes of the world was just one of those songs that just. It just spoke to me. It just commanded me to wake up and find that me and everyone else hearing the song where the eyes of the world. And that can mean a lot of things for a lot of people, but for the environmentalist in me, that's what spoke to me.
I think the quintessential version of the song is the version that they put on without a net with Branford from NASA. Yeah. Three 29 90. Yeah. That, that version is just. So amazing. But as we're preparing for this show, I started to listen to other versions that really I had heard it at my first show at three rivers stadium in 90.
I was at that shelf. Yeah. It was an interesting show because it was a, instead of an estimated eyes, it was an eyes estimated, which I didn't realize that at the time, how unusual that was, but it was, he only started doing it at that brand for show three 29 90 was the first name, mixed it up.
And they did the the eyes estimated. So then they started playing that combo backwards, for the rest of that tour and the rest of that summer. Yeah. The ones that really have caught my attention though, as I've been [00:22:00] catching up for this show there were two the Lincoln 73 one and the Boston 73, the November 30th, 73, 19 minutes.
At the 12 minute Mark, there's just some Slipknot hints in there. It's a slow version. The fast versions from the early eighties are interesting. It's I don't know. I don't even want to suspect what the band was on there. Just so much faster than some of the other versions. And then there's versions like rock Chester from 77 where Phil is just going off.
So I think eyes to the world is one of those songs that they could plug into any show and then any died in the world. Deadhead will love that song. It just soars every single time. It's always been one of my favorites. And one of my favorite stories is the noise of the world that was performed in August of 1987 in Telluride, Colorado.
And the Sheriff's department was on horseback and they were. Trotting around the perimeter of the park, where the stage was set up and the concert was happening and listening to the eyes of the [00:23:00] world. And the seemed to me like the tales of the horses were, how about you, Larry? You have any favorite versions?
Look. I've never met anyone who doesn't love eyes of the world. Okay. Everybody doesn't like something, but nobody doesn't like eyes of the world to borrow an old advertising phrase, and for me, it's like one of those pillars upon which the entire Garcia foundation is based, it's not as it doesn't get as much attention as Scarlet begonias or, some of his, certainly morning Dew or things like that.
But it's just one of those tunes. It doesn't matter where or when. And I absolutely agree with Mark that no matter how much I thought I knew the tune and how much I loved the tune when I heard it on without a net that. Totally changed everything for me. In fact, it, this was, that came out not long after Jerry came back from his his 89 illness.
And I had already lived through the first illness in 86 and now the illness in 89. And, it was hard to keep getting back on the wagon. I was working and doing everything to get back out there at all the shows. I heard this show and I heard that and I was like, we're [00:24:00] going. And next thing you knew we were off to Arizona and, caught some shows out there, but it's just such a tremendous version of it.
And to me, one of the things that I really take away from it is, where the hell was the saxophonist and the grateful dead lineup all of these years. Branford is amazing, but you see what a saxophone can do. It's such a natural fit right. In with every, and, but I guess again, part of that is just Branford, right?
Think about it. He's up there. He's never played with them before. And what I love about the song is for about the first three minutes, he's just do you know, he's not really taking a position yet. He's just feeling it out. And then somewhere in there, he just dives in.
And once he does, he integrates in, Jerry integrates him in and it's they've been doing it together, all of their lives, which I guess is, what we're really looking for when we're looking for this type of spontaneity that, that takes us to dead shows. So for me, I think that's far and away the best one I ever saw Heard before that, and it's funny, you mentioned those 73 shows.
My favorite is one of my all-time favorite, grateful dead shows that I never saw, but had a tape of that I listened to until it, it chilled itself February [00:25:00] 15th, 1973 from Madison. And that is a tremendous show. Had a great here comes sunshine. It has the A tremendous version of the only Donna song I ever liked.
You ain't woman enough for me. And and it's got a killer 18, almost 19 minute dark star on there that's excuse me, eyes that comes out of a dark star and into a China doll. And it's just such an amazing 45 minutes stretch of music that, you almost lose track of the fact that the eyes is in there until you realize its eyes and you have to really focus on it a little bit more.
On the fast side April 17th, 84, I saw them at the Niagara civic center. And it was like a, it was a throwaway show was my senior year, second semester. And we had already traveled everywhere. We had driven out to Hampton to see them. And we had driven all through upstate New York to see them.
And then they did the show at Niagara and two other guys. And I got in a car literally. Drove through Canada straight over there and got to the show. And it was, it was a great show. The second set was helped slip. Frank women are smarter and they played it and played it. And it certainly sounded like they were going into drums until the last minute, [00:26:00] Jerry just says and he dives into this eyes of the world.
They were like on a timer and they I've never heard they, they played this song so fast that at the time it seems so unusual. And I never really heard it quite that fast again, but that night it actually fitted, they were just, we're going to squeeze this in before drums. I want to get it in. I'm getting it in.
And they did. And that, that was great. And then probably, if you're just, if you're a new listener and you're looking for a classic. Dick's picked six, which is a, an 83 show from Hartford. Which I was not at, but it was significant because in that run, not that night on the Dick's picks, but the other night they played St.
Stephen, which was the second time they played it after they broke it out in the garden. A week or two earlier, a show that I was at when they broke it out for the first time in five years. But just to show you how great this is, that's got the awesome Scarlet fire estimated eyes, which yes, eyes estimated was fun too, Scarlet, fire, estimated eyes, China writer, estimated eyes.
Those are just when you're, when you knew they were going into that. And that's, 45 minutes [00:27:00] of here comes fantastic music my way. And they never disappointed. Yeah. So I was lucky enough to actually see the brand for dice on three 29 90. In, in that show, the intent was only to bring Branford out at the end of the first set to play the bird song.
And he ended up meshing so well with the band that they said, come back out and sit in with us for the rest of the second set. And I think what, the takeaway from that is, is not just how amazing and unbelievable it was that he came out there site on scene and played it the way he did.
But literally from that point forward, when Vince Wellnet joined the band, he actually changed the way he played keyboards. To mimic a lot of the sounds that Branford put into that eyes. So you can listen to a lot of things that Branford did on that eyes for the first time that Vincent continued to play, for the next five years.
The other one that, from that era that I think just always blows me away is the three 30, one 91 from Greensboro Coliseum. And that one's a Bruce Hornsby eyes and the interplay between Garcia and Hornsby. That it's a long intro. Then they play the first verse and the jam between the first verse.
And the second verse is probably eight to 10 minutes long. And the interplay on the on the piano between the piano and the guitar riffing back and forth [00:28:00] is just so amazing. So anyone that hasn't heard that one is a 23 minute and third, 23 minute 41 second. I think eyes it's like definitely the longest one I can think of on record.
But just simply an incredible slow, drawn out, really mellow, but really fun back and forth. Excellent. Yeah. It's there's just so much about that too, that's so great that, you can really just talk about it from the first time I ever even remember hearing the song being played live was at a concert in Ann Arbor in 1980 or 81 by a dead cover band out of Cleveland called or a Boris or a robbery, or however they pronounce their name at the time.
And we were in the Michigan union and they started to play this song and whole group of us were dancing and I turned to somebody and I said, God, this song sounds really familiar. What, so I guess this, Oh, this is eyes of the world. And from that point on, I was like, okay, now I know what it is.
I'm locked in. I'm happy with this, and yeah, it just becomes one of those songs you have to hear, Hey, sometimes we ride on your horses. That's true. Sometimes we walk along. My my claim to fame of that song, Jim is in college, there was a house band that you played at the house parties were at all the [00:29:00] time.
And one night, one of the guys was so banged up that he actually couldn't remember the third verse to the song when they were playing eyes. And so the, they looked around the crowd, like they would know it. So I got up and just grabbed the mic and sang the third verse. And and after that, when, whenever they played, it shows us that they'd invite me up and sell it to let me sing eyes.
So that was the one song that I got to see in college. Any time that this particular band is in the house, dissecting the lyrics in the grateful dead lyrics annotated. One of my favorite books, it says that the there comes a Redeemer and that is a reference potentially everybody has their own interpretation to Jesus Christ.
And the wagon loaded with clay is the Catholic church or religion in general. I've never heard that. Why not? I. That could be it doesn't look, Hunter was deep enough and certainly in tune with those, elements of life that he could have very easily intended those to be what he was talking about.
But they're good lyrics, those are the fun kind of lyrics to dissect, follows a wagon behind him. That's loaded with clay. And you're like, [00:30:00] what the hell is that? Nevermind. Who cares? It's just a great song of having a good time. Keep playing. Yes. For our listeners out there.
If you ever see. The grateful dead lyrics, annotated in a bookshop or use bookshop, be sure to grab it. It's a wealth of information. So what else has happened in grateful dead world? I know you've got a a new release. You want to talk about that for a minute later? Yes. The dead have now released Dave's picks volume 37 and with this release of volume 37, they have surpassed Dick's picks which stopped at 36.
Dave is alive and well and rolling right along and. For Dick's picks a 37. What's really fun is they return to a familiar scene for them, which is the college of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. And it always makes me chuckle because it's a tiny little college that. Unless, somebody who goes there, something like that, you may never have heard of it, but yet for some reason it's a place that, to which the dead gravitated.
And I want to say that it's, Dave's picks four or five, one of the original ones they released that's I think in [00:31:00] 1973 show from the college of William and Mary and Yeah, they do it here now. Mark for you, you're a Pittsburgh guy. You said the this show is concise enough that they have to add on extra.
They add on a good chunk from a few nights later at the civic arena in Pittsburgh. Now that would have been back in 1978. So I don't know whether that's a show you would have necessarily made it to or not. But I remember the old civic arena, cause that's, I remember where the penguins used to play.
Originally. I grew up a big blues fan in St. Louis and knew all the second six as they were called, who, joined the original six and Pittsburgh was one of those teams and it was always an back before they got Whatever, all those great players that they've had over the years, but it was a lot of fun back then.
So yeah, I've never seen a bad show in Pittsburgh. Of course I've only seen one show, but it was that show your tide three rivers state, right? Yeah. 1990. But they also played three records again in 95. And then there all the civic arena shows, of course I'm actually not from Pittsburgh. Although I lived in Pittsburgh for seven years.
But th the 90 show didn't they have Crosby stills open for them. Yeah. They Crosby [00:32:00] stills Nash open for them. There was a giant hot air balloon, 95, 95. They had rusted root. That was the rain show. It was the rain show. It was the second set that opened with rain. It looks like rain for Selma in the range of four rain tunes in a row, going into drums with the rain pouring down pouring.
It was absolutely insane. Torrential, downpours, and nuts. It's nice to know that every now and then they're at least in touch with what's going on around them. Back to a day's picks 37. I listened to it all the way through a couple of times. And it's just a great show that, Jerry does is virtual.
So guitar. On the first song on help or no? We have step. Yep. And I believe it's the Wolf guitar. Is it not Larry? And boy that the sound is phenomenal. I have a nice sound system, which helps, but boy, people are, what I was thinking is people always talk about 1977 as being such a great year and I'm listening to the shot.
I'm thinking, 78 wasn't bad either. No. We know we've talked about that. 78 is a great year and it's a great half stuff, but Robin Dan, if you're listening and [00:33:00] Jim to as we are, we're always looking to come up with our list of topics to talk about. One of the topics we're going to have to talk about is songs they played and then stopped playing.
And for me, one of the songs at the top of that list is passenger. And that's the second song from this show. And I love passenger. And from the time I started seeing them in mid 1982, I don't think they ever played at once from that point until the end. It was an old, it was a Phil Lesh tune.
Bobby sang a lot of it. Maybe when they didn't have Don in the band anymore. I don't know, but I, yeah, the Brent's first show they opened the other first set with it. Oh, you're right. That's true. They did for show for set. You're absolutely right. That's a great call. But somewhere along the way, early on it fell out of favor and it's dropped off the list.
Yeah, but I do love that era's half steps were. We're unbelievable though. I think Jim's spot on if another one from that era, transitioning between 77, 78 was the Broome County arena from 11 six. 18 or 11, six 77. What's the other half-step Jack store opener in that thing is just barn burner.
It's [00:34:00] 20 straight minutes of that's what I love about 1978, especially this show because when you pick it up and you look at the set list, it's a very standard set list in terms of, variety of songs that they play. But this is one of those shows that you fall in love with because of how they play the songs.
Rather than what they're playing. And for me, I'm just as happy to come out of a show with what I would consider to be a more pedestrian setlist well-played, and then there's some times bumbled efforts to reach a little bit beyond where they might truly be comfortable going. One interesting thing about that first set is the weather report suite is not the center, whether it's just let it grow right there.
They don't do the full whether they just do it. Yeah. That doesn't that, Oh, no deal closes the set. They play that into deals. Yup. Yup. Which deal is a pretty standard set closer, but that's like putting two standard site closers back to back. So that's, that's two for the price of one.
You can't beat that. That's great. Yeah. W when you hear the, let it grow, you're pretty sure that's over a hundred percent, so you get a little bonus song. And then what I love is it's a second set birth opener. And as much as I think of it as a show [00:35:00] opener, there's so many other places that it popped in that 83 show in New York where they played St.
Stephen, they actually played Bertha. I want to say they played birthday into the drums, but they played it before the drums, for sure. Never, in a place where I'd never heard it before, it was just one of those Canaanites. But Jerry would just toss it around from time to time. We'll talk about that sometime too.
Yes, because I see we're coming towards the end of our time slot. So I don't know if anybody has anything. They want to squeeze in here too, towards the end of the show here. Before we sign off just wanted to know if you had any parting words or if there's anything that you're doing that you might want people to know about if they want to follow you or anything like that.
Oh thank you. I, so I've got a couple things going on. One of I've been consulting companies on corporate responsibility and environmental, social and governance in the cannabis space, mainly under the moniker needle and E. DLE consultants.com. And I also have my own podcast called a better world podcast.
It's not a cannabis podcast. It's more of a conscious business podcast, although I do [00:36:00] disproportionately favor cannabis stories. And so the two seasons are up of that interview some great people from the world of conscious business and the arts a number of them from cannabis and look for a season three coming later this year.
Okay. Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you to all of our listeners, of course, for being here today. It's always fun before we sign off, let me kickback over to Rob hunt for one moment. Yeah.Amazing having Mark on the show, Mark.
It's so good to see you and so good to hear you. Next week we're being joined by our good buddy, Jeremy Bergstein who's run a pretty big marketing firm of New York called the science project and the, since gotten involved in the cannabis space as well. And much the way we talked about, the Roscoe pavilion show today.
Next week marks the 50th anniversary of the legendary six night run at the Porchester Capitol theater. Which saw us, get six new songs out of the grateful, dead, including greatest story and loser and Bertha and several others. And it was the first time I think that the band came back without Mickey Hart.
After Lenny hearts had ripped off the band. So it was back to the one drummer set up. So it [00:37:00] was a five, five man band for. That run. But it was, the Mark of a new era for the grateful dead. And in one that I think that anyone that's listened to knows just how impactful and how important those that six night run was for the growth of the band.
I think you're absolutely right. And you say Lenny Hart and I jumped because one, these days we're going to have a conversation and subtle for once and for all. Who's the song he's gone is really about it's about Lenny heart without a hundred percent, the catharsis of letting it go. Of course it is.
And everybody wants to say it was about pig pen. It's not about pig pen. No. It's the Lenny heart song. A hundred percent. Yep. Better. But I know him and I'm going to look in my grateful dead lyrics annotated book for next week. I already did. It tells the story. You'll see it. Yes. Awesome. All right.
At least for me, thanks so much Mark for coming and another great show. Larry and Jim. Yes. The expanded DJ format is very nice. It broadens the scope of what we can talk about. So very good. All right. I'm going to sign us [00:38:00] off then. Yes, sir. Everybody. This is Jim Marty saying goodbye till next week from that deadhead cannabis show, Larry.
Thank you, Jim. Larry Michigan's saying goodbye. Be safe and enjoy your cannabis responsibly. Thank you everyone. Thanks so much. We'll see you next time. Over and out. .