What's it like growing up when rock legend Merl Saunders is your dad? Musician Tony Saunders grow up in San Francisco during the rise of the hippie culture surrounded by famous musicians, athletes and celebrities. He talks about how his father influenced his career and shares stories with Rob Hunt and Larry Mishkin about his interactions with renowned figures like Jerry Garcia, Dionne Warwick and Wilt Chamberlain. Produced by PodConx Deadhead Cannabis Show - https://podconx.com/podcasts/deadhead-cannabis-show Larry Mishkin - https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin Rob Hunt - https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt Tony Saunders - https://www.tonysaunders.com/ Jay Blakesberg - https://podconx.com/guests/jay-blakesberg Recorded on Squadcast
What's it like growing up when rock legend Merl Saunders is your dad?
Musician Tony Saunders grow up in San Francisco during the rise of the hippie culture surrounded by famous musicians, athletes and celebrities. He talks about how his father influenced his career and shares stories with Rob Hunt and Larry Mishkin about his interactions with renowned figures like Jerry Garcia, Dionne Warwick and Wilt Chamberlain.
Deadhead Cannabis Show - https://podconx.com/podcasts/deadhead-cannabis-show
Larry Mishkin - https://podconx.com/guests/larry-mishkin
Rob Hunt - https://podconx.com/guests/rob-hunt
Tony Saunders - https://www.tonysaunders.com/
Jay Blakesberg - https://podconx.com/guests/jay-blakesberg
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Deadhead Cannabis Show. I'm Larry Michigan of [00:01:00] Michigan Launch Chicago. Uh, joined again today by Rob Hunt of Linne Holdings out in San Diego. And, uh, folks, if you're tuning in, you've picked, uh, probably one of the best shows you could tune in for. Uh, we are really, really honored today.
We have, uh, Tony Saunders is in the studio with us, and in a minute we're gonna be having a chance to talk to him and if he tells half the stories that he was just sharing with Rob and I before we logged on, uh, this is going to be a show you won't wanna miss and you're gonna wanna pass out to your friends because, uh, we all love Jerry.
We all love Merl, and nobody knows him better than Tony. So we're very excited to dive into that. We've got some of Tony's music and we're gonna lead into one right now for everybody before we get going here. And this is a bass solo, uh, that Tony did, uh, on the Keystone Revisited album.
Wow. Well, that is, uh, that's great. Bass. [00:02:00] What can I say? Uh, this is just wonderful, Rob. How you doing? And, uh, what a way to start a show, huh? Yeah, look, I'm so fired up. I'm such a big fan of Tony Saunder's music and such a, a big fan of, um, all the things that he's accomplished musically over the last, I mean, 47 years or so that I've kind of known him since.
Uh, he started playing with, uh, the Garcia Band back in 1974 or 75, uh, when he first came on my radar. And obviously I was a big fan of his father's music as well. And I, I can't even tell you how thrilled I am to have him in the studio with us today. So, uh, without any further, um, ado, let's, let's dive in.
Tony, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today, man. I'm so excited to meet you. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I think that, uh, you know, um, I've been playing bass now 50. Three years. And, uh, it all started by, you know, my dad would take me to sessions and, and at first I played piano and my dad would take me to sessions.
Um, when, when he was on, [00:03:00] so when I got, I was in high school, I went to a session, they were doing the soundtrack for, uh, uh, Jane Fonda and, uh, Donald Southern Clue for the movie Clue with Taj Mahal, Taj Mahal, Jane Fonda, you know what I'm saying? I met Jane Fonda. I'm like going, damn, she's even finer than, than, uh, you know, I'm just a kid.
But I'm going, I know that that's a beautiful woman. So I'm not one of those kids. Who, who didn't wanna be like their parents when they grew up? I'm the kid who wanted to be exactly like my dad when I grew up. Cause what a lifestyle. I mean, you know, a lot of first happened at his shows. You know, girls, I first noticed girls liking me, you know, at his, at their shows and, you know, I saw the, the Rock world and, and I idolized John Conn.
And what's really cool is we lived on page and my grandparents lived on page and Ashbury. So in 19 six in San Francisco, in the Hay Ashbury, [00:04:00] they lived right, they lived right down the street from the Grateful Dead House. And that's amazing. Little did I know that in 1965, I was 10 years old. I, I turned 10 in 1965, but that's where the hippies came.
Um, and they, there was music in the park. Girls would seek through shirts, you know, so I threw away my Playboy magazines. I didn't need that. I, my grandmother would go, you guys sure have finished your, your chores quick. I said, I know, man, I gotta get up on Hay Street. You won't believe what's going on up there.
And so, so when you were 10 years old, Tony, that means, you know, Janice Joplin's running around Quick Zero Messenger service was running around. Grateful that obviously, um, Moby great, like all these bands are right in your backyard as you were a 10 year old kid learning how to play music. They, they were playing in the panhandle every week, every Saturday and Sunday.
There was music in the park. And after I did my church stuff and practiced my piano lessons, I got to go to the park and, and, and play with, and not play with them. I got to meet them, uh, Jack [00:05:00] Cassidy, I met him first. And Jack Cassidy. He let me rehearse my group at the airplane house when I was a teenager.
Um, whenever the, the equipment was all out of the airplane house. He said that, that I could practice in there and he gave me a couple of bass cabinets, you know, and got me started. What's really funny is I played with so many of those people that I stood there on the sideline, you know, Googling, going like, whoa, wow, this is really cool.
Music is really great. So I, I probably saw so much music, it was incredible. And then, so my, we had to go to sleep like at nine o'clock and my grandmother in 1965 would call the police and go, Hey, my grandkids can't get to sleep. And then three years later, When my dad met Jerry, then she's feeding him chicken, you know what I mean?
The same guys that you would call the police on, you know, so it was, it was, uh, it was quite a transition because if, if in 1965 it was still pretty segregated, [00:06:00] even in San Francisco. Um, and so the hippies came to, we lived, my grandfather worked for, uh, Mr. Lure who at the time opened, owned the San Francisco Giants.
We weren't supposed to live where we lived. There weren't any black families there. But Mr. Lu went to the bank with my grandfather, said he needs a loan, and of course, he got the loan. And we were one of about three black families that lived in the Hay Ashbury. The rest were Jewish. It was a very upscale Jewish, uh, Irish Catholic neighborhood.
And, uh, You know, it was, it was quiet, it was peaceful. You go to the store, sign for your groceries, and then your grandparents pay on the week, the next weekend. You know, I knew all the, everybody, you know, and so when the hippies came there, it was quite a, quite a change. You know? Cause, cause go ahead.
Didn't, didn't it also go the other way? I remember when Bill Graham got the first Fillmore that was in a really black neighborhood, and a lot of people were saying that, bill, I'll you happened. So the Fillmore happened because [00:07:00] that's where the blacks live. The blacks lived where they worked in the shipyard.
They all lived in the Fillmore District. That's where all the black people lived. So it was called too, cuz you couldn't live west of Masonic, which went from the, where the panhandle was all the way to the beach. And you couldn't, you couldn't play music south of VanNess, so at being black. So all the blacks went to the same hotel.
Um, that's why I met so many people. They, they all stayed at Sam Wong's hotel, uh, in the, in the Broadway district. And, and then my dad played at Jackson Sutter, and they, which was right on Sutter and, uh, Sutter and Fillmore, um, which was right around the corner from where Winterland was. So all the blacks played at the same clubs, you know what I mean?
And then that was the first place that, um, where my dad played, I can't remember the name of the club, but, um, where my dad played was the first place that blacks and whites could go to the same club and play. This is when he was playing [00:08:00] jazz in the United States. Like we played at the, like you could work at the Cotton Club in New York, but you couldn't go there and just hang out.
So on Monday nights they had this, they had this music there, and blacks and whites could sit at the same table, you know, and, and go there. And it was the first place. A lot of, a lot of people that I, that I have told me these stories, it's a, uh, it's incredible because, you know, I'm listening. You have to play it.
If, if you're playing north of, um, of, of Van Ness, that means it was basically all the places in the Tenderloin, like Great American Music Hall and all the, the theater districts. This was pre that, pre that. So the union had it. The Blacks couldn't play south of Van Ness, which is where all the hotels were.
So all the hotel gigs, right. You know what I'm saying? All the good gigs. So, but they developed a Fillmore into such a mecca that everybody wanted to come there. That's why Bill Graham came there and, and, and turned Winterland. I was sad when he did that cuz I used to see the ice fallings there every year.
But I was happy. Little did I know when, when I was [00:09:00] ending, you know, that would be part of my career going to Winterland. I mean, I was there for the last days of the, when the Grateful Dead stopped playing in the seventies. Um, and then when the band did the last, I saw Stevie Wonder open for the Rolling Stones.
And I knew, I knew. All the people. They just told me, I knew all the security guys. So, because I went there with my dad and Jerry, and so, um, you know, um, so I could get into all these places and they just said, Tony, don't drink or get us in trouble. I said, I'm cool. I, I'm cool, you know, I just, Hey, Tony. Yes.
Let me ask you, this is all great, but what was it like growing up, you know, with your father and with all of these amazing musicians, Jerry Garcia and the guys in the airplane, all of them, and, you know, I mean, and you're a young kid running around the house and they're all there. What, what? Tell us about that.
Well, I didn't, I didn't know that they were famous. I had no idea. [00:10:00] I had no idea. I mean, my dad's first band, he had Johnny Mathis singing. You know, um, and so, um, I remember one time when Dion Warwick came to our house and, and I charged my friends a dollar to come look at her and, and, and, and you're the lady that sings, do you know the Way to Santa Jose?
And she said, yes. Her husband, bill Eden was playing drums with my dad, you know, and, uh, and you know, at this jazz club. So yes, I knew that it was special because we got to do so many special things. I mean, my da Okay, so when the Philadelphia Warriors moved from Philly to San Francisco? Yeah. Um, so my dad met Will Chamberlain.
So he had a record company with Will Chamberlain. So I hung out with Will Chamberlain. I cleaned his house for $5 a week, you know what I mean? And he would like the shortest girls he would be. And he would leave his car at our house. When he went on the road trips, [00:11:00] he had a benley. You know what I mean? So he left that at our house, but I, I would clean up his house every Saturday for $5.
And, and so, so I, so I didn't, you know, I knew Will was famous cause we, we would go to the Warriors games and, uh, you know, we'd go to the Civic Auditorium and watch the Warriors play and, and I would play pick up games with my dad. Me and my dad beat Wilt and my brother, you know, I don't know if Wilt led us or whatever, you know what I mean?
Yeah. So, so, but it was, it was great. I mean, he was a super nice guy and he, later in life, uh, when I lived in Los Angeles, he did me a solid, so when my parents split up, moved to la um, so all the friends, I told 'em, yeah, I know Will Chamberlain, you know, blah, blah, blah. They were like, okay, you take us to a Laker game and let's, uh, you know, let's, you know.
So they had this kids' day, I was in junior high school. Um, and so they had this kids' day. They said, Tony, hook us up. So I said, yeah, let's go. Let's go, let's go. Let's go. You know, I never called Wilton, asked him, [00:12:00] you know, but we had so much fun there. They didn't trip when we were walking away from the place.
They didn't, nobody said, you know, Tony, you didn't introduce us to Wilt. So unbeknownst to me, we're walking across the parking lot. I hear this Tony, cause he wilt, stuttered. I hear Tony, Tony and Marley. He, he yelled for me and my brother, right? And he said, Tony. And so he pulled this Bentley up. He said, how you guys doing?
You wanna ride home? And we said, we said, uh, we're with our friends. Um, so we we're just gonna take the bus. He said, tear your mom to make me a pie. Come by Wednesday and get it. You know what I mean? So when he came by Wednesday and got the, you know, he asked me, he said, do you wanna be a ball boy sometime?
I was like, yes. Some Jerry West Baylor. You know, I saw those guys. I saw Jerry West make that 63 footer. When they beat, when they lost to the Knicks, cuz Dave the bush here, the shot from the corner and they lost to the Knicks. But uh, you know, [00:13:00] but to hang out with Wil was like incredible, you know what I'm saying?
It's like, will Chamberlain and, and, and for him to come across the parking lot and notice me by my big fat head, you know? And so I had kudos at school. I went to junior high school with Warren Moon that the quarterback and uh, and who else went to my junior high? Oh, Marcus Johnson who played on the Milwaukee Butt.
Sure. Oh. So I'm seeing some talented guys. But get back to your question. I was always around some talented music, you know what I mean? Some really great music no matter where I went. Um, cause uh, we went to my first, my dad played with, uh, with the Billy Williams review and they had those guys who did the, with Shirley Temple show that did those, he had those, those two twins were in that group.
And uh, you know, I met so many musicians. Uh, that, that it was incredible. I would, I would go on Saturdays, the lady who lived in front of me, she let the crusaders rehearse at their house. So I would see [00:14:00] that. So let's go back to San Francisco. So I would, I, I would come visit my dad and I would get to see so much music, you know, I didn't realize I'm hanging out at Mike Bloomfield's house and like I found his pill stage in the, in, in this, this tent that we were playing.
So I carry these pills in to my dad. I go, Hey dad, I found these in the tent. He's, what you doing? You know what I'm saying? So, so, I mean, hanging around Bloomfield Butterfield and Nick Raven introduced my dad to that whole scene, cuz I later did a, I did a session a few years ago with Grani and Grani said he came from Chicago with Butterfield to San Francisco to fit in.
But they're the ones who introduced my dad into that whole scene. And Grani said everybody loved the way my dad played, uh, Oregon. So they, they kept them. And then at, at that time they was playing God, um, Jerry was playing with At the Matrix with Howard Wells. Yes. And it was Howard Wells John Con Bill.
Yeah, John [00:15:00] Con, bill and my dad. And, and then, so we would go to the Matrix cuz they had with my dad, cuz they had pillows first to lie on, you know, and we're just kids. And my dad, my dad liked to keep us around. And so, uh, what was really cool is that, so when, when my dad met Jerry, then, then the business, uh, bill Vic told me this, the business got more serious and at fir and so my dad never played in the Jerry Garcia band.
Um, that was after fir it was called Merl Saunders and Jerry Garcia. Yeah. Right. For those 70 to 73. And I mean for us, we, these little black kids, you know, listened to Motown and then all of a sudden we had this other music to listen to. I always thought it was cool cuz I loved the way John Con played Bates and I imitated him and could, I could play every, every baseline.
So at that point you were still a keyboard player, weren't you? Like you were still 70 to 73. I was a keyboard player, yes. And you're, you're getting caught by Kby Hancock and Sly Stone, huh? Well, I, I had a [00:16:00] show on Sly Stones, so Sylvester Stewart Sly, he came to my house to my dad to get advice, you know what I mean?
Cuz his career, he was a dish jockey and all of a sudden sly, the family stones start getting famous. So he would come to my dad. My dad was like the older guru. It's kind of like I am right now. I'm the, I'm the free lawyer for everybody, you know. I said, well Tony, should we do this until we do that? You know, so, so my dad would, would advise Sylvester and he saw me, he saw me playing piano, he took an interest in me.
Because I did a, I had an hour show on his show, and, uh, and he bought me a, b, a B3 for my birthday, my 10th birthday. Wow. And then George, oh my god, George Benson came, talked to my dad, uh, before he did that record weekend in la He said, Merl, should I sing? And, and my dad going, yeah, you sing like an angel.
He says, but what are the jazz guys gonna think about my plan about, I'm a jazz guy? And, and so he said, my, my dad said, it's okay. You sing really great and you play [00:17:00] really great. Don't worry about it. And, and the next, within the next couple of months, he did that record weekend in la, which launched his career from playing, making a five or 6,000 a night to play in arenas.
And, uh, and so, so that kind of stuff was happening to me all the time. So I, my dad was best friends with Jimmy Smith. Uh, he, which is insane because like Jimmy Smith was one of my all time favorite piano players. Uh, like I don't think there anybody plays in electric piano better than Jimmy Smith and Jimmy Smith Trio.
Like for me, when I was young. Oh yeah, completely. And totally changed my life as far as jazz, where I'm like, all right, this is a whole nother level. I, I moved his organ every time he came to San Francisco. I al, he's also a karate expert, and I'm standing on the corner of 57th and seventh Avenue in New York one day, and he comes and I feel somebody kick me in my hair.
And it was Jimmy Smith. He said, I told you to always be on guard. Be ready. You know what I mean? But, so I gotta meet. I met George Duke when I was really young. Um, the guy who owned the place where he would play at, [00:18:00] let me go in and sit behind everybody and said, Tony, don't make a peak, but you could watch us.
So I saw George Duke played Alau. My dad played, he played Jackson Sutter six nights a week. Then he had a Sunday jam section that everybody who was in town would come to Miles. I have, I have pictures with him playing with Miles Lion Hampton. You know, it was like a music. Well, huh. Chuck Rainey was my dad's best friend.
Yeah. From when he moved to New York. And so Chuck Rainey was at my house and he showed me how to play the Sanford and Sun Lick. Then he played on Sanford and Sun, and the first time I, I saw Chuck Rainey play, um, he was playing with, uh, uh, uh, Quincy Jones. No, I saw him play with Quincy Jones, and it was him playing electric, Ray Brown playing the upright.
You know, I'm going like, you know, it's like, and I knew who these guys were, but let me go back to when I was still playing keyboards. When my dad would go on the road with Jerry, I took out his truck and his b3, um, to play little high school gigs. [00:19:00] And if he, if he knows now, he'd probably come down from him and then pop me upside my head and my grandmother would, my grandmother would say, does your dad know you're using the van?
I'm going like, yeah, but it's between us. Let's keep it low. Keep
from my high school. That come to my gigs now, and they go, Tony, when did you switch to base? And I'd go, like, like when I was, when I was in the ninth grade, 10th grade. And, and they'll go like, we didn't know. So, so when I started picking up John, my dad would take me to John Con's house. I'd sit there and learn stuff and uh, you know, and then I would listen to him play the gigs with him, him and my dad.
And Jerry and I, I could play every, because I had the piano in me, I knew what the notes were, right? So every af after I started getting good, this is maybe six months into the thing, John Con would say, well, why don't you come up and play the last song with Merl and Jerry? So I would come up and play the last song.
So this one time we were on [00:20:00] the way to a gig and my dad goes, Hey, bring your bass. And I'm going, why? I gotta bring my bass. I could just play, I could just play John Khan's bass. And so Tom Fogerty from Credence. So, so, okay. Back up a little bit too for that. The golly wags rehearsed at Fantasy Records.
When my dad was signed, the fantasy records, they, they worked, the golly wags worked in the, the, uh, the mail room. Um, the Golly Walks turned into Credence Clearwater Revival. And I knew them from that, you know what I mean? So when Tom, so I was getting good at bat, he gave me a Fender pre cbs, BS, bass. And so, you know, I went and got that and played my first gig with Dan and Jerry.
Steve, Steve Peck, big Steve. He told me about two months ago that they were all nervous cuz they didn't know that I could play. They didn't even, cause before Steve gave us a hundred dollars to move the Oregon on, so he didn't have to come to San Francisco and pick up my dad's organ, right? And so [00:21:00] I was just a roadie.
So when they, my dad said, Tony's gonna play, they all was like, huh. And they was all looking, it was like they were looking around the corner and then, and then they say, okay, here we go. Jerry didn't know I could play. No, uh, bill Vick didn't know I could play. John Khan was away playing with, uh, I forget the name of the group, brewer and Shipley.
Him and Bill Vit were gone playing with Brewer and Shipley, cuz they had just done a record with them. So they were gone for two weeks. So, so, so my dad on the way to the, on the way, I was driving to play at the end of the beginning, which is about 45 minutes from San Francisco and Kati, California, you know, halfway there he goes, Tony, guess what?
John's not there today. You're playing the whole gig. I'm going, what? I've going like, what? He goes, just stand by my left hand and then I'll, if you don't know the chords, I'll tell you the chords. So it's like, okay. And so I stood by him. That's 74, like June of 74, somewhere around there. That was 74. Yes. I, I was 18 years [00:22:00] old and uh, um, so I got through that gig, but after the first break of Jerry and, and my dad were like going high fiving, it was going me, Tony could play really good.
We don't have to get subs anymore. When John goes, we could just use Tony and Par gave me like a amp, you know, gave me my equipment, you know, and he, he was really proud that, that, that I was good. And he said, but you're not a roadie no more now you're a musician. So he cut me off from getting hundred dollars, you know what I'm saying?
And, and Ali could get paid from gigs, but, you know, I wasn't mad at it cuz I just kept getting better and better and that's all I wanted to do. So, so being, playing my first gig, yes, I was nervous, you know, um, it was, uh, it was, but I remembered every baseline. I didn't add any fields. I know I played everything just like John Cod, you know, cuz I hadn't, I hadn't got my own identity yet.
And so, You know, it was, it was great. And, uh, you know, girls [00:23:00] liked me. I was like, girls didn't like cause, cause before I was always with, my dad never really had, you know, a, a weekend in high school when girls would go to the parties, you know, they would meet somebody else other, they talked to me during the week, but on the weekend I had to go with my dad to gigs and he was breaking me in learning how to play bass.
So I had no social life on the weekends. But, but then they found out I could play music and I was, I, it was cool, you know, that, that's why I have a son. My son was born, uh, my, my da my son's mother hung out around, uh, my dad and Jerry before I did, you know, she was a, she went to all the gigs, she went to all the Grateful Dead gigs.
She introduced me to the Grateful Dead. You know what I'm saying? So I didn't know anything, but through her, um, she was a great girl. Her name's Leslie. We're still friends, you know what I mean? We're still best, we're still friends. We have sons. I have, we have a son together. Her daughter claims me as a father.
Cause on Facebook I'm more entertaining than her real dad. [00:24:00] Her dad is only a lawyer who represented me for, Hey, hey lawyers. You know what I'm saying? And so, yeah. And so, uh, and so, so she's blonde hair and blue eyes. Right. But sh but she'll, she claims me as a dad, right? And so people, she'll go to places and people are better.
Tony Saunders ain't your dad, he's too black to be your dad. And she goes, call him and ask him and Hey, lemme ask you this. Yeah. Tell me what it'd be like, you know, night at your father's house, you guys were hanging out and Jerry comes over, you know, what happens that night? Are they hanging out? Are they getting stone?
Are they playing music or are they telling you stories? What's happening? Uh, we probably go downstairs. We probably smoke a fatty and then go downstairs and, uh, and, and play music. Cause my d Jerry was always learning from my dad to jazz stuff. And he won because he gave me a book for Christmas one time.
The, the Serious Book of Scales, which has every scale that you could play mathematically, you, you, some of the scales you can't play cuz you don't have enough finger. [00:25:00] Um, um, so, uh, so it would, it would definitely be really cool. Uh, because, and they, they had their own world. My dad and Jerry loved each other a lot.
And my dad, you know, my dad, you know, he was hurt when the group split up, but he was, uh, you know, he always still called on Jerry. And Jerry still called on him, you know what I mean? To do separate projects. So they kept working until, until Jerry passed. Yeah. I mean, they did, they did stuff, I mean, for years after the original Garcia, Merl combination, but they did Legion and Mary together, they did reconstruction together.
First Reconstruction, they did the re reconstruction first, then Legion and Mary. Um, and, uh, uh, then, uh, um, the re then the, uh, rainforest cd, which was phenomenal. And then I was there after Jerry had the, uh, the brain theme, um, when he, when he had the coma theme. And then I saw him basically learn the guitar.
Cause what I'll tell you too is after [00:26:00] that, the, the Grateful Dead didn't play really long songs anymore because Jerry couldn't remember. It was, he was good for about eight, nine minutes, but that was the most, you know what I mean? So they didn't put theirself in, in a situation. You notice Touch of Gray happened when, when they started playing again.
And, uh, you know, and then they started doing more concise music. You know, the songs all had endings. Instead of them playing them 40 minute jams, they would only be 10 minutes, you know, at the most. But they, but they really only were like five, six minutes. Um, and Jerry, they, he would always be in the, he was into learning music.
So what really made me learn about Jerry's love for my dad was, so my dad created a group called Aunt Monk, and we would play every Monday night. At the Sand Dunes, his club in San Francisco out by the beach. And Jerry would show up? No. Steve Parrish? No. Just by himself cuz he knew we were playing, carrying his amp in and his guitar.
You know what I mean? And he would, he [00:27:00] said, I just, Hey Merl, like Hey Merl. I just wanted to come play, learn some different tunes as everything they played in Reconstruction and Legion. And Mary Jerry already knew cuz he played with my dad, with aunt up. We would play Stanley Clark stuff, weather report stuff, you know, we would play all this fusion stuff and Jerry loved it, you know what I mean?
He loved it. Cause he would go, one time we played Stanley Clark song, LOI Lu, which goes like, hell Accords and it's hella fusion. Jerry go, uh, that don't work, that don't work, that don't work. He said, Hey, you know what? I gotta come over Miran. We gotta figure that one out. So he did, came over to our house after the gig.
They figured it out the next week when he played it, he was perfect, you know. And uh, and it led to me one time when I had to stand over by Jerry instead of my normal safety zone, uh, by my dad's left hand. You know, they played the song Pennies from Heaven. I did not know it. At all, and it's on YouTube somewhere.
And with me screwing up the whole [00:28:00] song. And I was so embarrassed after that. I said, Jerry, I'm sorry, I didn't know that song. And he said, don't worry about it. It's just a fucking song. Play the next one. I know. You know the next one. And I did, and I killed the next one. And, you know, so it was a, it was a combination.
Those groups evolved because when I started getting better, I'm not saying this, but John wanted to do different things, you know? Cause I started getting better. And then instead of one song, people would go, Hey, is Tony here tonight, John? And I'm like, I know. That rubbed him the wrong way. You know? I know it.
I, I know it. When that fusion stuff was big, I mean, that was a big influence on you as well. Like, Alfonso Johnson from Weather Report was a big influence on Yeah. Alfonso Johnson was ridiculous. Cucumber slumber, you know, that was, that was the mess. You know, I, later I, I later got to meet the guys who I loved playing listen to when I was young.
I loved listening to Jack. I, I got to play, there's on YouTube, there's a theme with me and Jack Cassidy playing. Imagine just the two bases. And, and I [00:29:00] introduced him. I said, this is my teacher. This is the teacher and the student. And, and you know, it was Jack the one time. So, um, when Bob Steeler played in High Tuna, I was Bob Steeler's best friend.
We would go downstairs in his house and we would play for hours, right? So when, uh, Yorman would get mad at Jack, he would call up Bob and say, Hey, is Tony around? Can we play some, can you guys come over here and play? So I'll get to go play with Una Yorman used to come to my gigs too and hang out. And then, so, so, uh, so Jack, I would be, I was like Marta's little kid when I was, uh, Yo's first wife.
I would be at the all their sessions. Hey, and if you listen to, I think it's funky number. Nine or something like that on high tuning record. Listen to that bass part he stolen from me. Jack stolen from me. So one of my favorite imagines of all time was actually your dad and Jerry at Pacific High Studios, I think in 1973 when they played the instrumental version together.
Yeah. It was there for that. Yep, yep, yep. [00:30:00] I was, I went to every gig with my dad. It was like, it was, it was, uh, you know, free, get to hang out, smoke weed, listen to music. You know, that's a good thing when you're a kid, k f thing. Right. I think they played K Faw thing. Yep. And it was always like a really nice place.
And different people, you know, I'd meet all these really, beau I would wonder why these beautiful women didn't look at me. It's cause I was 14 years old, 15, 16 years old. But I would see these gorgeous women and you know, they would be like, they'd be like, why are you looking at me little kid? You know? So, Tony, do you mind if we play a little bit of the, uh, the music?
Just Jerry, I love, I love it. So Dan, why, why don't we fire up, uh, a little bit of, um, of Tony playing with Garcia. I think the next one we've got lined up is, uh, a cover of Marvin Gay, what's going on from the Keystone Theater in Berkeley, California on January 22nd, 1975. Yep. Thank God John was gone.[00:31:00]
No, again. Oh, well that's okay. Sometimes the music works, Tony, sometimes it doesn't. It'll all be in post-production. Tony, it'll all be in there, so we'll just pretend we heard it and uh, and then you'll be Well that was cool. It was funny. There's a, the, what's going on, I think all blues is on there. Um, that, that I know that I'm on.
And then I'll tell you some as we, I like how you tell you interrupt and ask me questions cuz it just triggers more stories, you know? Right. And Jerry, so Jerry also, so for a while I lived in Inverness with this girl, beautiful woman. And, uh, she walked up to me at the gig and said, I wanna take you home.
And she was, I'd never seen a woman that beautiful like I was, I was just a baby, but she was 35 and I learned how I wanted to be later in life living with her. But Jerry lived on a couple of ridges over, so I was walking by his car one day and, and I saw his Campbell, so I took a couple of his cames and smoke them.
And when we got [00:32:00] to the gig, he looked at me and he said, Tony, why'd you take my cigarettes? I, I, I reached in my pocket and I had a pack. I said, I'm sorry, man. I was up on the ridge and I saw your car and I took a couple cigarettes. Don't worry, I'm replacing them right now. Here's a couple packs. He said, well, thank you.
You're so nice for replacing them. You know, so it was, it was a, it was good. You know, it, you just don't realize that, you know, uncle Jerry was, was really famous and that, you know, those people came out to see him every night. Um, you know, and, and they just, the, the people like they believe. He's like, he's such an icon.
They still come to see people play his music. You know what I mean? Yes. And it's like, it's like, uh, you know, it was what, what a guy, what I will say is that what I learned from him is that keep learning music cuz that's all he did. Yeah. I think he would, if he was alive today, he'd be a little bummed at all the copy groups that copy him because what if he was having a bad night and [00:33:00] you think that show was great and you're playing everything from that show that he did.
But he was always a learner. He was always thinking about what can I learn to make myself better? And I really appreciated that about him. And no matter what, the one thing I was gonna say on this is like, the reason I love Garcia, and I think Larry will say the same thing, is that we learned about so many other musicians that I would've never otherwise known about if it wasn't for Garcia.
Like the stuff that you guys were playing and the stuff that, you know, your dad and, uh, and Jerry were playing. Those are all, you know, for the most part, covers of other people that you know, that I would've never heard of. Like, for instance, like the next song we're gonna play, uh, that you're on is Expressway.
I would've never heard of Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. I would've never heard of The Souls. Right. If it wasn't for, you know, for Garcia. So the stuff that he turned me onto, not just in like, um, in gospel music and not just in, um, you know, like, uh, like funk that he was doing. Um, you know, but even the Grateful Dead was largely a cover band.
Like, sure, I would've discovered Dylan, but I wouldn't have discovered, you know, like Helen Wolf at such a young age who wasn't for her Garcia. Right. Right. Are like that. [00:34:00] Although, although every New Year's they have somebody great playing with them. Like, win Marcells. Win Marcell the Neville brother. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying? They, they, I mean, tho those shows are like epic. And what's really funny now is like, Bobby's an expert on everything, but he knows is facts. He know. But the, but the thing I'm gonna tell you about him, he knows his fact. He'll go, well Tony, back in 1957, this guy did this and he knows his facts.
Cuz I played on, uh, I forget, not Willie Dixon. I played on Willie Dixon's record that his daughter did. And he's went, well, you know, Willie Dixon, Bobby told me all the facts about him. You know what I mean? And, and Yeah. Yeah. And what a, what a what a theme to play, you know, what a, what a history to have, you know what I mean?
If you listen to weirds guitar parts in the Grateful Dead from back in the day, they're intricate. Because he was, he was like accenting what he felt from Jerry and, and Phil. And, and it's, and sometimes it's not the easiest stuff, you [00:35:00] know, or the stuff. If you really wanna hear some great Bob Weir, listen to what Pigpen, when Pigpen was in the Grateful band, and listen to what he played opposite Pigpen, that it's like some incredible stuff.
Those are some of my favorite shows, you know, with Pigpen and, and, uh, and of course the last night of the Grateful Dead at Winterland. That was, and that was incredible. I was there all three nights and it was just incredible. Did you ever get to play bass with Phil Lush? No, he won't. He won't. In fact, when I, when I was at his club, I want to, I want to, and he respects me as a player and he's going, I want a Terrapin station open.
And he, he was shy, shaking everybody's hand. That was his thing. So he walks down the line and he goes, uh, he goes, wait a minute, Tony. I said, yeah. He says, Why did you just come ask me? Could you come in? I said, it's cool. I got a four or $5. It's cool. And, uh, I didn't really want to ask a favor. Maybe I'll ask him for another show, but I didn't need a show.
I didn't need a favor. I just [00:36:00] wanted to be like everybody else and go in the show. And he goes, you know, then he shakes everybody saying, he goes inside, gets one of his kid to come out and get me. Says these kids, they, they come out, where's Tony Saunders? And these girls are all going, I'm with him. And I'm going, no, you're not.
You kicked me. You didn't wanna talk to me. God. You know what I mean? So when I got in there, he goes, Tony, why are here? You're, you're a jazz guy. Why, why, why are you here? I said, I love the way you play. And he goes, for real? I said, yeah, I do. And that was the first interaction that we had about that. I'm still working on him to get to do it in public.
Uh, I'm still working on him because I, I've done it with Jack. He's the last one. You know, while he is alive, I want to get. Uh, that I haven't played with from the Grateful Dead. I played with everybody else, it except Pigpen and, and him and, and, you know, that would be awesome to me. That would be like the, uh, it would, it would close my door on that one.
Yeah. But I played with [00:37:00] everybody else. So, as I said, the next thing we're gonna listen to is, uh, is Expressway to Your Heart, which, uh, is one of, to me, one of the most fun funky songs you guys played in the 1970s. I, I love the Baseline on this tune. I love that there's
Right, it's such a fun, playful tune. I gotta think it's a 17 or 18 year old kid. You had to love playing that song. Oh yeah, yeah. It was like, it was like that taught me more music, you know what I mean? Because I knew the r and b stuff, you know, I knew about that because, you know, I grew up listening to it, but now I'm meeting music that crossed over.
You know what I'm saying? Music that crossed over bigger genre. So when we play that song now and Keystone revisit it, people hum the baseline just like you did. And when I add something, actually they go, we heard that part that you added to, to expressway because it just goes boom, boom, boom, boom. Hold on, boom.
And then it in your dad's part, you know your dad would come in with the keys heavy right after that part. They're like, [00:38:00] it's such a, maybe we should just listen quick. Okay. Yeah, it's great.
Yeah. I love what you do on that, Tony. It's so much fun. Obviously I've heard a, you know, a handful of people do it, but the only, the only reason I ever knew about that song was because of like, you know, 19 74, 3 76 Garcia, um, iterations, whether it was, you know, with your dad or whether it was Legion to Mary, you know, those were the ones that, uh, that, you know, they, they played a song, a song called Mother Load, if you could.
Oh no. It's a song called When I Die. It was by Mother Load this, this group from Canada that my dad and Jerry liked. It was like, pretty awesome. Um, and, you know, it was for me, like, like I have no prejudice whatsoever towards anybody. I am glad that I've been turned on to all this music. You know what I mean?
Not that many peop people would think I'm lying [00:39:00] if I said, I've been around the Jefferson airplane, the Grateful Day, SMA Nash, you know, sly Stone. You know, they, they think that I'm like a, a guy that's like bragging. But, uh, but, but I'm not, you know, it was a great thing. And I got to play with Butterfield.
Butterfield, um, bought at the end of one of my dad's tours. Um, he bought me back to Woodstock. I stayed at the, uh, barn and, uh, and, uh, so while I was there, I got to play with, uh, John Sebastian. Yeah, yeah. Leon Russell. And, and, and, and his wife, Mary. Mary, Mary McCreary, uh, Butterfield. Uh, I stayed upstairs and, uh, I got to watch Max Roach play at the Joyous Lake.
You know what I mean? It's like jazz. Yeah. And then I got to meet Al Grossman, you know what I mean? And, and then, uh, these roadies, this one roadie that I worked with when I was 12 [00:40:00] years old, lived there. He worked for Butterfield. How does Max Roach get together with Park Butterfield and in John Sebastian?
I mean, Sebastian and Butterfield makes sense together, but Max Roach throwing that into the mix. No. Max Roach was playing his own stuff. We were just watching him, but I learned, he, he taught me, max Roach showed how the High Hat could just play a song. And I was going like, wow. The best, like, uh, jazz trap, uh, drummers I've ever seen.
Ever, ever, ever. You know what I mean? What can you say, let me ask you a different question. We've talked about a lot of the guys that came before you, but you know, in the Bay Area there's a lot of bass players that came after you, like, um, Les Clay Pool and Charlie Hunter would be two that come to mind. I mean, Charlie sort of being a fusion guy also and doing a lot of adjust.
We, we played at the same, we played, Charlie Hunter and I played at the same club, the Paradise Lounge Forever. Paradise. No, we played at the Paradise Lounge. We played there. He would be playing upstairs. I would be playing downstairs, our vice versa. And so I saw him develop that whole thing and my friend played drums with him [00:41:00] and uh, you know, just.
Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and it, it was like, you know, Les Clayer was ridiculous, ridiculously. I also, in that same time period, Metallica, Metallica came, yeah. Um, bat bass player, um, Brett, he, Hey, all of a sudden he got real good. It was, it was really funny. Cause he was in, he, the guy in Metallica were playing all of these funk bands.
Right. And then the next thing I know Brad Russell, I think his name, and then, I can't remember, that might not be the right name, but, but anyway, the guy, he, he was the guy in Metallica that played basses. He, and he sang, he was in like a bunch of funk groups. And when I found out he was the pretty boy singing Metallica, I was like, whoa.
You know, I couldn't believe it. And, and just so many, is that right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But, so look, I, I look [00:42:00] at Les Clayborn and I think Les is probably one of the most innovative, um, uh, bass players of all time. But I look at a lot of the stuff that you were doing before he got big. And, and I look at a lot of the stuff that, like, you know, when I watched you do bass solos now and how innovative your bass playing is, and it's like, it's not, like you said, you're a huge, like Dave Devotee of John Comm, but John Comm was a very straightforward bass player.
And even when he did his solos on like Russian Wallaby and his, you know, solos on, on some other tunes, they were very understated. They never really got super, super funky the way the year bass player is. Do you think someone like, um, so, but, but you have to remember I idolized John Con to the. To the T so I could probably play you Russian lullaby.
Like no, for, no. But I had this other crazy side in me that, you know, I saw Jimmy Hendrix play when I was a kid, you know what I'm saying? So I want, I wanna treat the bass, like, eh, you know, I wanna, I wanna treat the bass like a guitar. So that's why you get the funk stuff mixed up. But then I wanna be melodic and I wanna tell stories.
So, you know, I wanna try to mix it all [00:43:00] in, you know, playing the stuff that I do now with the smooth jazz stuff, it's cool, but, but really I have the most fun playing at Keystone, revisiting. Cause we played, you know, all of these tunes and, and I play solo in that band and I can play whatever now cause my dad's not telling me what to do.
And, and, but it's, it's, it's like, you know, expressing yourself, you know, and that's what I learned the most from, from all of those guys, from, from John Khan, from Jerry, is that they, if they express theirself, I mean, if you listen to. Listen to like get a dead song and listen to it through the different periods and listen to what Jerry played.
That's what I listened to. And some of the, some of the stuff, like, he plays it different on the different guitars. You know what I mean? Sometimes when he is playing the Travis Bean listen to that stuff, it's like totally different than anything he's played or when he got Tiger. You know what I mean? Yeah.
It's like, it's like it's playing. Yeah. I remember seeing him play those guitars when he first got 'em, and he was [00:44:00] like, you know, all, he's a bad, he's a bad dude. You know what I mean? And, and to be surrounded by all of that creativity makes who I am because I'm always reaching for it. You know what I mean?
Alfonso Johnson once told me, he said, Tony, everybody has its place. There's, there's only, there's only gonna be so many virtuosos. There's gonna be so many really good people, and there's gonna be some teachers, there's gonna be some innovators. You know, he explained to me and I was like, oh, wow, I never thought that.
And then, and then, so I teach now, I have some great students, you know, but I, I also, I love to go out and play. I, I'll never lose that. Cause my dad toured until he, till he passed away, you know? Um, he was still, I couldn't, in fact, the reason why I didn't play with him, I started out with him in the rainforest man.
But he was like, he was like touring all the time. He never went home, you know what I mean? I was like, oh dude, I got to go home. And, and then, and then, so, you know, I, I played with other people [00:45:00] and stuff, but that, that was, uh, you know what, what a conniption of musicians that I've, I've been able to come across.
So what other contemporary guys do you, do you love? Mean? Like based on expression and fun. Like, that's like Victor Wooten, someone that you love on, on base these days, or you know who else is, who doesn't, who doesn't, of course. Yeah. Uh, Victor Woo's crush right now, uh, Victor Wooten. Stanley Clark distiller Ralph Armstrong on upright.
He plays upright. On upright. Uh, you know, I used to love, uh, the guy that played in, uh, not the Wolf Brothers, uh, the guy that passed away, um, that was in Bob's group before. Rob Waserman. Rob Boss. Yeah. I used to love him. I used to love him. I loved Tim and everything he did, he was like, awesome. Uh, and, uh, he like the standup base, didn't he?
Yep. Yep. So my thing is, is so I got that standup stuff in me, but I, I'm a, I'm gonna play it on electric bases. And make [00:46:00] you feel it. Like my electric bass, you know what I'm saying? So I could play the cute melodies, but I also could tear up the bass. You know what I mean? So don't think that, I don't, I'll play Purple Haze at a jazz gig and they won't even know what I'm doing, except for my dead heads who know that, Hey, Tony's playing purple Hayes hit with his jazz stuff.
Nobody knows that he's playing Hendrick stuff. You know what I mean? So, so I, I mix all of that stuff in. I, I really like, I love, I listen to Les Claypool, um, so that I can get charged up. You know, I listen to, uh, Brian Bromberg, who plays electric bass and upright, and he plays guitar and drums, but I listen to him because he's like, so good.
And his rhythm theme is like, it's like he plays Les on the bass, you know? So I, so I'm getting into that learning how he does that, you know? And I like anybody who's good, I, I have, uh, a guy that I'm working with right now. And he plays bass a little bit like [00:47:00] Les. And I'm going, that's kind of luscious. And he's going, I thought I sounded more like Jack Cassidy.
And I said, nah, that ain't Jack Cassidy. That's, that's Les. Um, but the, uh, one thing I wanted to tell you about Jack, Jack hadn't seen me play in about 10 years, and he saw me playing a na show and a tear came down his face cuz he says, I can't believe how good you've gotten Tony. And he walks over to the, the Gibson booth and gives me one of his signature bases.
You know what I mean? And I, and then I'm crying, you know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. Thank you so much, man. That's like, wow, man. It's like, hey, it's like Tony, I, I love all this music talking. We're gonna get back to it in a minute. But given that this is the Deadhead Cannabis show, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to please relate to us the story about how after your father died and you were cleaning up the house and you moved a piece of furniture and they were behind it on the floor, you found Jerry Garcia's pipe.
Okay. So I didn't find it. My brother did. Okay. My brother did. Uh, but. So when Jerry came there, uh, after he got out the [00:48:00] hospital, he stayed in my brother's room. And, uh, you know, they played every day for about two weeks. Cause really, he really couldn't play. And I, I was going like, what happened? And he just said, his brain got, he said, my brains got scrambled.
And then I just, I forgot. And I was going like, wow. And so, yeah, he found his little whatever, whatever crack pipe or whatever you want to call it. Also, what was really funny is that whole week while he was at my dad's house, a black cat sat on his hood for real, a black cat sat on the hood of his car's.
Like, you know, come on, for real. And my dad was, was very gentle with him. You know, I know that my dad didn't know that that pipe was there or he would've taken it, you know? And plus two, I was working with him and John Con. When he went on the, um, to work, the last gigs that he did, I was working on a movie score and they were kind of, they would go in the back.
I could say that, that [00:49:00] they never did any, anything with me, other than pun never did anything with me. And I, so they would come out the back, him and John Con would say, Tony, so I'm writing this score for this movie. The movie was called Farmer and Chase. And, and they were gonna submit a couple songs to it.
And I was doing the music. So I would, I'm working at John's house. They go in the back, they come out and they come out, listen, let's, lemme hear what you did. And I said, they go, oh yeah, yeah, that sounds great. And then they go back in the back. But John, and as you know, Jerry, were like, I inseparable with everything that they did, unfortunately.
Yep, yep. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yep. You know, pretty, they, they both were jerry listened com. It was basically your father and, uh, and Carlos Santana, they really taught him how to play music again, wasn't it? Yep. Yep. I mean, I sat down there with him in, in my dad's studio and watched him play. And it was like, you'd be humbled if you were there that day, you know what I mean?
You'd be [00:50:00] humbled. Was your father really patient with him at that time? Because be all the stories I've heard. My dad's always, my dad was always patient and Jerry gave him a, there's something on the internet when Jerry talks about that, he'd always make time to play with my dad. When we did the Twilight Zone episode, Phil Les gave me the job to play bass because he only played on the opening theme and the closing theme, but he didn't have the time to come there every day to do the, do the TV show.
And we did it for two and a half years. Jerry would come on Thursday. Me, Bob, and Brent were there every day with my dad. Um, and uh, that's how I got into sushi. Bob would order sushi every day. And I, and I started liking it after a while. Hey, what was Brent like? Brent was super nice. We were like kids, you know, we were like two kids.
Cause we would like be joking around and stuff. We would be like, the kids like messing with stuff in on front street, you know what I mean? Until my dad needed us. And then, and then he go, Hey, hey, where are you? But you know, and, and, and there's a couple of H Street [00:51:00] things where Brent's playing my dad's b3 and my dad's playing synthesizers.
And if he didn't like him a lot, he wouldn't be playing at b3. You know what I mean? So Brent, you know, Brent was a nice, super nice guy, great keyboard guy too. And I love the way he sang too. He was cool. He was cool. But me and him were like, we're like friends. We, we, we, we, we were like, we go eight, eight, Hey, did you see that girl like in the third row last night?
Tony? Well, here she is. Uh, but he was my, he was the keyboard player when I started seeing The Dead in 82. So I missed all the earlier guys. Right. Uh, the, you know, the, and Brent, and I loved Brent, but it was like, boy, I wish I could have seen Pigpen. But then 10 years later, my younger brothers are going and they're hearing Vince and they're, oh, we wish we could have heard Brent.
Right. So everybody always wishes, and I loved Vince ick too. I thought he did a great job. He did do a great, I got to play with Vince too. I was in one of his solo bands, and then he passed away, like right before we getting ready to do this major tour. Mm-hmm. [00:52:00] So is that missing formation? Yeah. Yep. Yep. I, I would go up to his house and we'd play for hours.
Hours, man. And he was cool, man. He could play. Um, and so that was around the time when Bruce Hornsby would be around too, and Bruce Hornsby would play a lot too. Uh, with, with the, with them. And Vince, Vince was, was that structure where he played, like, he could do like the Hornsby stuff, you know, and he had songs that were kind of like that Hornsby vibe, like the, like the, um, like, you know, he had songs like that.
It was, I, I always liked to fit in with the different things, you know, and, uh, you know, and luckily I did let, let me ask you a strange question and that, how did your dad feel about Melvin Seals? Were they, were they friends? Were they, uh, you know, I knew, I knew Melvin Seals from when I was 16, so I used to play, I used to play, uh, uh, sessions for Melvin Vails when he had a four track, right?
And be, and so [00:53:00] we were always going on, I was always going on the road. And then Melvin would go like, oh, I wish I could do, do that and go on the road. Then he, he got the gig with Elvin Bishop, um, and then he got played with Dolly Parton, play with a bunch of people and. Melvin was a good gospel guy, still is a good gospel guy still, but Melvin produced players and it's like him and the B3 and Leslie, it's no better.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, uh, but he's more of a gospel guy. He's not really a jazz guy. He's not really a jazz player. He's not really a jazz guy. He can't, he can't baker. Pardon? He, he's a, he's a church organist. He's a church organist. And if you listen to him play, I love him dearly, don't get me wrong, but he's, it's, it's different when you got, when you got a gospel guy playing this music, you know, they're gonna stay pretty conformed to parts.
And sometimes, um, when we play someplace that Jgb has just played, they'll say, Hey, you guys don't play the same show every night. Cuz [00:54:00] sometimes we see Melvin play the same show, says, I, I said, you know what? I haven't seen Melvin since, cause we're working all the time. I haven't seen him in a long time, but, you know, I know he's a, he's a great player.
He's a great producer. He, he had a, a gospel record company called, uh, secret Records, and I would play on all the records. You know, it was, and it was great. I remember when he met his wife, you know, and, and he would always wanna be wild. So when they, uh, when they had a new con con convection of Jerry Garcia, um, after Reconstruction, they did, uh, they did, uh, Maria Modera because of her, with John Con, she suggested Melbourne cuz they wanted to go a different direction.
And there, there was no animosity between your father. Uh, when, when Jerry decided to go that direction, instead of working with Merl still, I mean he was still, it was funny, they would be rehearsing on the other side of Front Street and we'd be on the other side doing a Twilight Zone. I'm sure [00:55:00] that my dad wanted to still be playing with Jerry cause he loved him that much.
You know what I mean? He loved him that much. But, you know, my dad rolled with the punches and, and, uh, Because at first they used, uh, the guy from the Stones, what was his name? Uh, Nikki Hopkins, the one who Nikki Hopkins. First they used Nick Hopkins, and my dad was kind of bummed about that. But then, you know, when, when Jerry came and played with him away, he knew that Jerry still wanted to play with him.
You know what I'm saying? So he, they did enough other stuff that he was cool. And I was really proud of my dad when he had his first sellout. I was with him. It was in Rochester, New York. And, you know, all the Deadheads came out to see him. And it was great. It was great. It was great. And uh, you know, it was great.
So I'm sure that the animosity wore off, you know what I mean? Uh, my dad and Melvin did a tour, you know what I mean? They did ok. That's, yeah. So, so, so [00:56:00] it wasn't never any talked about animosity, knowing both people. My dad was a jazz guy. Melvin's a gospel guy, Melvin. I played more church stuff with Melvin.
I played on tons of records for him, for church people. Melvin got that down my, and he can do stuff that my dad couldn't do in gospel. My dad has jazz stuff down and can do jazz stuff that Melvin couldn't do, but they're both great players. You know, they're both great players and Melvin, for him to keep this, uh, this thing going on for as long as he had J G b, it's incredible.
It's incredible. You know what I mean? It's incredible. But he sticks to the book. I know that because sometimes if he comes and sit, the last time I played with him at Great American Music Hall, he says, he was telling me a song that we're playing with Norton Buffalo. And, and he's going like, this goes like this, Tony, like this.
Cause he wanted me to do this notes. You know what I'm saying? So, so I, Hey, and I, and I, and I'm, I'm humble because I, I always, I don't [00:57:00] wanna make mistakes, so I listen to him and I play the correct notes. You know, so, so, so I have utmost respect for Melvin. I wish that we would sometime get together and play, but he doesn't wanna do that because he has certain specifications.
In fact, the bass player, uh, that plays in, uh, in, uh, JGB, uh, what's his name? I'm not sure. He is got now. Okay. Um, he's having the same guy forever. Um, but anyway, that guy, um, when I would go sit in on his gigs, he would go, oh, Tony, that's cool. Do something different. You know what I mean? And, uh, and uh, and so we, we would hang out and, and I'd go sit in on his arm, play with this girl named, we both played with this girl, uh, named Kathy Cotton.
And it needed to be me or him. And he and he, then he would come hang out with me, you know, which was really cool. Hey, let me ask you a quick question about this, Tony. Do you keep up with any of the new jam bands, fish, widespread Panic Goose, any of those guys? [00:58:00] I like widespread panic a lot. I love Trey Anastasia a lot.
I, that's my favorite group, right? Trey is my favorite group and I'm gonna get to play with, uh, the big guy. Uh, no, I played with him before. Um, cause he plays with, uh, with, with Bobby. He plays with Bobby a lot. When they used to do weirds here, I used to be all the time there. And they let me do my own weirds here.
And, and schools doesn't like me around that much, but that's another story. But I like him, but I like No, no. He doesn't have any animosity towards me for real. I, I, I'm just making that up for real. Okay. We're, we're the best of friends. I'm, that was Tony. I'm, I'm trying to think of, uh, the guy, um, who's the guy who plays Monica that sings John Popp.
John Popper. John Popper. So I'm getting ready to do some stuff with him and tribute to my dad and Trey, and uh, you know, that's gonna be pretty awesome. And, um, we're gonna release, so you mentioned this earlier, Robert, [00:59:00] about that Imagine Track Yeah. From the Lion Share. So what I've done is we've taken that, we've broken it down and we've added it so that, uh, we've added it.
We've made a new, a new song out of it. Where they, so we took out all the melodies, but we left all their solos. You know what I mean? So we're gonna have a track of Imagine come out with Jerry and my dad, bill and John Con with Tony Saunders playing the melody and, uh, uh, uh, Scott Guberman for and, uh, and, uh, Danny Eisenberg playing additional Oregon additional keyboards.
Um, the lead singer of David Ruffin Jr. Singing, and, and we didn't get in their way when they [01:00:00] did their stuff. We let them do their stuff and it all comes naturally except for I play the melody. You know, so of course I'm in tears the first time. And, and you'll have to, um, Dan, I can have your email, so I'll send it to you.
Just don't play it for anybody cuz it won't be out for another year probably. Just Yeah, yeah. Sit on it. Listen to it'll listen to it. Yeah. You'll enjoy it. And if you have anything can make it better. Tell me. Cause I'll listen. That's for sure. Uhhuh. I don't think Larry and I are qualified to do that. Tony.
Dan might be. Yeah. But it's, it's a, it's a great track. So, hey, you were saying that your, that your dad was a jazz guy. Melvin was a gospel guy. I've listened to your music and I think you're kind of everything, you got a lot of funk in you. I was gonna, I was gonna play one more track, uh, before we get to some of your, um, uh, um, individual stuff you've done later.
But on the funk side, uh, we have a quick little bit of you playing Boon Reggae Woman, obviously a classic Stevie Wonder Tune. [01:01:00] So if you don't mind, let's, uh, let's play a little bit of that. This is again, miss Boogie. Yes. This is back from, uh, back from, uh, let's see if I remember the date on this one specifically.
But, uh, July 22nd, 1974. Thank you. Wow. Appreciate that. One of, one of your earliest gig with, uh, with Jerry and Merl. So let's, let's cue that up.
So that to me is one of those classic songs that so many people have covered. Obviously Phish has made it really popular and introduce it to a whole new, uh, a whole new wave of, of youngsters. Phish does it. Phish does it really good. I, I like, I like Phish a lot. I also like, what's the group from Colorado that plays like the Grateful Dance stuff?
Like really good and it's a lot. It's a big string cheese incident. Yeah. String cheese incidents is one, but there's another group. They're like an orchestra. Oh yeah. Motown Dark Star Orchestra. No, dark Star Orchestra. I like, I like them a lot. I like them a lot [01:02:00] cause they, they, they make me like relive the days I took acid, you know?
Yep. I, I sit there and go like, wow. I remember I took acid that day and went to Stinson Beach and watched the water melt down the side of the mountain. You know, Rob Eaton pretty awesome from Dark Star. They, they're bass player. Rob Eaton was, uh, lived right by right down Oh, cool. City Colorado for years.
Yeah. Those guys are great guys, man. They're, they're, what they do is unique. They're, they're nice people. They're, oh my God, it's so good. You know? It's so good. You know, and I'm glad that the, uh, Bobby sometimes plays with them and sits in and I, I don't know if Fields played with them, but I know Bobby has, I've seen videos of Bobby playing with them and, and they're, they're just like, really good.
Straight Jesus in it is like, impeccable. So I'm doing something right now with a girl that plays cello and, and, and a girl that plays upright and violin. That's gonna be on my next album that I'm working on right now. And, um, um, it's gonna be, it's gonna have. Cello, [01:03:00] acoustic base violin, and let me plan electric.
And it's gonna be just what you now I'm on Baja TSR records. Cool. And that's, those guys are treating you well. They're letting, giving you all the freedom you want to just create. Yep. Yep. They want me to make hit singles though. I'm going hit single. I'm going like, you know, but, but wait a minute. I said, so, um, what you think they have my father?
No.
I've had like three or four hits. I've had three or four smashes. I'm cool with that. But you know what though? To, to just say that, to say, Hey, I need you to write me a hit. I'm going, but they're, when they signed me, I was number two to their guy who's number one for a whole year. And, and so they signed me because of that.
So don't forget that. You know what I'm saying? And you don't, we don't pick the song that's gonna be a hit. I said [01:04:00] my most played song, we didn't predict that. We didn't pick that as a single. So it's like, anyway, but that's a whole nother hour. How do people find you, uh, and where your upcoming tours are?
Do you wanna plug a, a website? You unplug anything else that you do? Tony saunders.com And um, and, and, and please come to tony saunders.com and, and you could, you could get ahold of me. My phone number's even on there. If you wanna talk to me, you can call me cuz I need to gig. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, I'm not that elusive or not that famous where I have, I have an agent, I have a couple of agents, but you know, if you wanna talk to me, some people, this guy called me up from New York.
He wanted to hire me to work on this movie, right? And he goes, he called me like at nine in the morning, right? He says, hello, I wanna speak to Tony Saunders. I said, this is Tony Saunders. No, the one that plays bass said, no, this is him. This is, why are you answering your phone? Why don't you have somebody do that?
I said, well, the budget isn't in the budget yet. When I do get there, then you won't be able to talk to me.[01:05:00]
I had Bernie called me one time and I got on the phone and I was like, you know, before Bernie passed. And, and he is like, it's Bernie Royal. I'm like, bullshit. Who is this? Really? He's like, no man, it's Bernie Royal. I wanna know if you wanna magic a tour by coming up. And I had the same thing with Steven Perkins, uh, from Jane's Addiction, where in both times I'm like, there's, you know, no, no, seriously, who is this really?
Like, which one of my friends is fucking with me right now? But you, for, for you, it's the other side. You're like, no, this is really me. For me, it's always like, no, this can't be you. Yeah, yeah. And so Mick Fleetwood called me up one time. He says, Hey, Mike, this is Mick. I'm he, Fleetwood. I'm no way. I said, hold on for a second.
And I, I put the phone down. I was, Fucking a Nick Fleetwood, you know what I'm saying? I can't believe. And he wants, he wants to write a song with me. And then I, I, I played with him a couple times over in Mait. You know, it's like, wow. You know, when these people call you, you know, you know, like when da, when I got to play with David Crosby, you know, that was incredible.
I didn't even know [01:06:00] a song that Crosby Stills and Nash did. I didn't know a song. He's going like, don't you know, don't you know, uh, what's it wooden? Don't you know wooden ships? Right. Come on, teach Your Children. Had Garcia in the beginning of it, you know, Garcia's the lead. The lead learned all of that.
But I didn't know who he was. And then he was ju he wouldn't like me to play with other people after I start playing with him. And one time Steven Steels asked me to play with him, and, and, and David Carter was like, no, I discovered Tony. He's fine. Yeah, yeah. But, but, but you know, some of my greatest music, I was with Tim Crosby when he got busted in Texas.
You know, I was, I was playing bass with them, you know, I was the unidentified black man who, uh, who the police say stopped him from going in the dressing room. But I was just leaning up against the dressing room door cuz I didn't go in there to do whatever they did. Um, um, I didn't go in there, right? And so I'm leaning against the door.
Half a [01:07:00] asleep cop hits me in my chest and I punched him back. Cause I didn't know I was asleep. And so I was asleep and I, I hit him. If you get hit here in the chest and you're asleep, you're gonna punch back. So in the next day in the paper, um, it was like I was the un it said an unidentified black man tried to stop a police officer from going in to arrest David.
And, um, you know, uh, Crosby goes, Tony, you clocked him. His jaw was attacked him. And so I'm not proud of that because I have all the respect in the world for the police, you know, but it was just like, you know, at the wrong place, at the wrong time. But David Crosby, I learned how to do a lot of music from him, and I learned how to fit in.
The, the drummer that played with us at that time was Jay David, and he was the drummer in, in Dr. Hook, and he taught me how to play Dr. Hook. All the, he taught me how to mix in what I do good with what goes well with the track. You know what I mean? He would've signals if I was playing too funky for him, he'd hold up the, [01:08:00] he'd hold up the white side of his hand and go, I need you to be a little whiter.
How could you, how you be too funky for Dr. Hook? You know, I, yeah, seriously. Funt guys up. If we were doing a session, if we were doing a session playing on somebody's stuff, I think I played on Juices, Newton stuff. He was going like, no need to lighten that up a little bit. Newton queen of hearts, huh? Yep.
Queen of hearts. I played on one of her records and, uh, would I, would I really, my, one of my fun periods away from, from uh, uh, my dead type music, although it was really free, was when I played with Buffy Saint Marie. And we played like all these Indian reservations. And, uh, on one day we played at the end of the longest walk.
And one day I met Marlon Brando, Muhammad Ali, Stevie Wonder, Ralph Abernathy. Dick Gregory, Richie Havens, Floyd Westerman. I spent like an hour and a half. Marlon Brando's, only like 5 4, 5 5, [01:09:00] you know, I'm like, he, he said, if you ever look at him on, on, on film, he's always off. He's never, he's never show how he said he is always off.
And, but it was amazing to talk to Marlon Brando for an hour. That was, that was, that was great. He's like seven feet tall. It's a tall, yeah. Richie a super tall and, and, and the other guy, um, if you, do you, did you ever uh, watch Barney Miller? Sure. So my dad, my dad's best friend was Walter Hos Max baseline as well, man.
Talk about intro baseline. Little bit on Yep. I know that one. Definitely. Yeah. My first baseline I ever played, my first baseline that I learned besides something John Con played was, was a, was a staple singer. Doo
that was my first thing. I thought I was so cool. I would carry my base to parties and go, Hey, listen to me, Tony. I'm hanging. Hey, my, my life [01:10:00] has not been boring. You know what I mean? Thank God, I thank God for having friends like you guys. You know, I never knew prejudice or anything like that cause, cause.
It, I grew up in California, so I didn't know that they'd say, you most supposed to marry somebody with blonde hair and blue eyes, which I did the first time. And, and then they say they're supposed to marry somebody dark and handsome. Well, I say, well, I'm dark. You know what I mean? One outta two ain't bad, one outta two bad.
And so I didn't know till I was in Oklahoma one day that there was prejudice. And you know, it was just, you know, I didn't know about that. You know what I'm saying? But I, I, Hey, you know what I'm saying? We're born outta love. We're born outta making love. So, you know, so I'm into the love thing. And, um, you know, I'm always trying to, I say that at my gigs and, and I, and I, I just wanna share love.
My dad just shared love with me. I mean, he could have not taken me under his wing and, uh, you know, taught me music and, and just let me be out [01:11:00] there, you know, but he didn't, you know what I'm saying? But I, but because of that, I mean, I've got to play with Dave Lehman, Peewee Ellis, you know what I mean? You know, I've got to play with some of these guys that are super good, you know, and, and, and just, uh, my grew, uh, so my cousin played drums with Stanley Turntine, Sonny Rollins.
These guys would be at my aunt's house on Sunday eating chicken when they played at The Keystone. You know? So, you know, it's like, it's like, wow, Vince Carra, I love Vince Carra cuz he was on Fantasy Peanut stuff is the best stuff peanut man. That's what's what I had. So peanuts was made at fantasy studio.
So I had, I had all of the cartoons of Charlie Brown, Vince Garra, I was there for when he recorded live at Grace Cathedral. Tony had one of the best nights of my life one night up in Humboldt County, uh, highest can be on on Molly, listen to Vince Geology to sleep with the whole house lit up and just realizing just how insanely amazing that music is.
Obviously like in I'm sure [01:12:00] helped, but just the music by, I only thought about it like, you know, kids cartoon music. And here I'm in my late twenties and all of a sudden hearing a whole new light and taking on a absolutely new appreciation for just how brilliant that guy was. So, yeah, he was brilliant, man.
He was brilliant. That stuff fit into the cartoons and, and it, it was, uh, it was made for everybody. You know what I mean? It was, it was everybody. Everybody liked that music, you know, just like everybody likes to grateful there. You go to a Grateful Dead show. You see so many generations, you know what I mean?
You know why I like it, Tony? Cause I can go to the Grateful Dead Show still, and I'm not even close to being the oldest guy in the joint. Yep. I can go there too. And it's like that, that thing, I, I love that group and, and the incarnations that, that are happening now. It's like, you know, you see so many people and I like it that, that the young kids.
Who are, you know, growing up with EarPods on, you know, they're starting to know like shows and they're like going off. I like my kids, listen to all of it. Yep. My kid, [01:13:00] my kid's seven years old, my son's seven, and he'll, he'll tell me which, uh, shakedown Streets is favored, which fire in the mountains is favor.
It's still happening and this isn't going anywhere. As your father said to, I've said to my kid, you'll be listening to this for the rest of your life. You don't know that yet, but you'll be listening to this for the rest of your life. So that's very truth. We're, we're, we're raising them. Well, man, Tony, look, I don't wanna cut this short.
You've been so generous of your time, but we've had you for, for over an hour now, and, you know, you're welcome to come back on the show. Literally anytime. Even if we have me back, I'll send you, I'm gonna send you this track of Imagine, listen to that and then okay. You know, um, you know, further down the line, have me back on and, uh, yes.
Maybe I'll get some of my Keystone guys with me. I'm Scott Guberman. So, so my thing is what I wanna say to all the people that love the Grateful Dead. Go out there and do your own music also. Yes, copy them because they played some great music. But if you wanna know what was in Jerry's heart, he would want you to play what's in your [01:14:00] heart, because that's what he did every night.
And if he made a mistake, so be it. You know what I mean? So, but, so what? It's just music. You make a, you make a mistake. That's what it's there for. So I would encourage people that wanna play, like the thing that he played on Tiger in 1971 at, at the, at the, uh, Madison Square Garden, at the film East or Madison Square Garden Capitals, you know?
Yeah. Capitol Theater. You know what I'm saying? So, hey, express yourself. Is what he would say. He would go like, why are you copying me? I was having a bad night that night. You do a great invitation, by the way. I love that. Hey, well if you can imagine, you know, I sat there next to him and I'm in awe of this whole situation going on.
I'm like going like, wow, this is a trip, man. These same people are here like every night, you know? To watch these people play, I'm like going, wow, this is, this is like crazy. Some of the, [01:15:00] some of the same people I hang out with, some of the same people that I hung out with when I was 14. It's like, wow, that's amazing.
That's just incredible. I think you guys have a great show and, and you know, I'm all for, I'm glad that cannabis has gotten to such an elite level where now you don't have to guess if you're getting good weed, you know you're getting good weed. Amen. I know, I know that now it's really good. You know, I'm cool.
Like I say, I'm a, I'm a frequent flyer, so I'll eat something to get on that plane so that I can sleep the whole way and, and wake up in another place where I gotta play music. I'm pretty sure the time you can always call, uh, big Steve for some grizzly pizza or call Mickey Harvey, get some little dog walkers.
But, uh, yeah, pretty sure you're well taken care of just by the Grateful Dead community for all the weed you could ever smoke. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I, I couldn't want for anything. They, the beautiful thing, this appreciation for my dad's music, you know, it's like, it's [01:16:00] like, it's so overwhelming. Uh, my last story I'm gonna leave you with.
Yep. It's just crazy. Great thing. It's a beautiful thing, Tony. We're playing, we're playing a gig in Connecticut. This lady walks up to me with a bra that my dad has signed and she's going like, can you sign the bra too? I'm going like, My dad already signed it. I'm cool. Besides that was looking at that bra that's from a long time ago.
So, you know, just, uh, just uh, either wear it as a Covid mask or you know, you don't need my signature, my signature on there. My dad's already signed it. You're cool. I signed one of my pictures and give it to you, but I can't sign the bra cause my dad already signed it. What else you what else you guys did?
I'm cool with, I'm cool with I, I'm glad you came to the show. Thanks for the opportunity. But, but no thanks. But I've so many, so many great things for people giving me stuff that my dad has signed and it always brings a tear to mind when I see something he wrote to people a long time ago. It's [01:17:00] cool. It's very cool.
Wonderful. This, this, this family is like the grateful dad took care of their entire family. You know what I mean? So it's great to share with it because it's in me. People ask me, how could I be a twirler and play jazz? I said, it's in me. It's in me. I went to Grateful Dead shows. I, I grew up listening to this music.
You know what I mean? You know how to twirl. I love it. That's great. I know how. But, but thank you guys for having me on and it's pretty awesome. You guys are, thank you really much. Cool. No problem. Thank you so much. Before we, uh, before we finish up, uh, today, before we say our goodbyes, we are gonna end with some, uh, Tony's more recent music as he, uh, plays Rock Steady, which I a Michael Jackson cover.
Uh, the end of the show and from, you know, my side of it. Tony, thank you so much for joining us today, and much love to you and your entire family to the whole Saunders family for just giving thank you endless, endless hours of great music to listen to for the last 35 or 40 years of my life. And I can't even tell you how appreciative I am for you've [01:18:00] contributed to, to, to my life, my friend's lives in just terms of just pumping out amazing, amazing music for all these years.
And keep doing what you're doing, man. I'm a fan. I'm so thrilled to have you on today. So thanks
Southern California. And, and Tony on my way out, I'll tell you that, you know, I was a young deadhead in 82, 83, just beginning to understand them and somebody put on the live at Keystone for me. And that, that that opened doors that I couldn't even believe, you know, to hear the music that Garcia was making when he wasn't with The Grateful Dead and how wonderful that all was.
And you know, this is music that impacts us years later that our kids listen to. Um, you know, so it's a wonderful thing that they've accomplished. It's great you're carrying on the tradition and, uh, really thank you so much for being on the show with us. Uh, Tony Saunders, everyone, uh, please check out his music.
Please check out anything he does that's well worth it. And we will look forward to having you back on the show, uh, very soon. So good luck with all of your work, uh, to our listener. Thank you very much. You're welcome, sir. Thank you. Uh, [01:19:00] and to all of our listeners, as always, thanks for joining us. We will have more great stuff for you in the weeks to come.
Uh, have a great week. Take care of yourself and enjoy your cannabis responsibly. Thanks.